KA is very disappointing

Sometimes all that is required is to simply ask the data. Most of the time it's trying to talk to us, if we would only stop and listen.

Let me ask a couple of questions...

Let's say that Kodak Alaris had been successful in luring a highly respected executive away from a rival company, and had instead put out a press release announcing Simon Galley as their new CEO.

What would be your collective sense and judgment regarding the probable future for Kodak-branded film at KA?

And conversely, what if Harman Technologies were to suddenly announce that Simon and the other managing directors at Ilford had decided to leave the company and were going to be replaced by Ralf Gerbershagen and his management team?

What would be your collective sense and judgment regarding the probable future for Ilford-branded film at Harman?

The thing is, actions (and non-actions) have consequences. Identifiable consequences. Antonio Perez came to EK as a printer guy from Hewlett-Packard. Kodak is now a commercial printing company. Simon Galley and the others who orchestrated the rebuilding of Harman are, by all accounts including his own, film guys. Harman Technologies is now the premier film manufacturing company in the world.

According to his CV, Ralf Gerbershagen is a mobile high technology guy from Motorola by way of Google. And he was hired by Kodak Alaris to set their future corporate direction...

The late Dr. Richard O. Stone, head of the Department of Geological Sciences at USC when I was there, was very fond of telling his sometimes perplexed students "Plot those results and take a good look at the graph, because your data is trying really hard to tell you something important."

Ken

Ken Nadvornick said:

Kodak is now a commercial printing Company.

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Kodak manufacture machines and materials for the graphic industry. But they have been serving the graphic industry nearly their complete company history.

So this is not related to a change of CEO.

RattyMouse said:

A pulse. Too much to ask?

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Thomas Bertilsson said:

And please tell what you mean by that.

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You mean like stand up and scream like they've got a nice pair? (see attachment, place on wet t-shirt) Out do Pink Floyd for volume?

"Hey, we're Kodak! Bringing you Kodak moments for over a century! We still have film, and there's still film cameras! Film, the same, year in and year out, still rocking long after your DSLR has hit its expiration date! Film, the one with the sustain! Film, made from metal and flesh!"

Eastman-Kodak decided to sit it out, Kodak-Alaris has so far decided to sit it out, and that only leaves the mutterings of people who are still coddling a little bit of flame.

(Oh, great, my little digi is fritzing out, and it's only nine years old. I have film cameras older than me that are still going strong!)

AgX said:

Kodak manufacture machines and materials for the graphic industry. But they have been serving the graphic industry nearly their complete company history.

So this is not related to a change of CEO.

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True as far as it goes, but now thanks to Perez's background it's their primary business focus and perceived path forward. Photography is now only a tiny declining legacy slice of the pie, and most definitely not a part of their long-term future plans.

Once that MP contract is fulfilled my own personal guess is that they finally drop the gallows trap door on Kodak film once and for all. It's been nervously standing out in the hot sun sweating with the rope around its neck for quite awhile already.

The question is, what then will KA do? Given their new CEO's background, I seriously doubt the data is telling us he will order Kodak film production to be somehow continued beyond EK. Easier to just drop it entirely in order to go after some sort of mobile gadget-of-the-month photo app pie-in-the-sky thingy for their retirees.

Never discount the starry-eyed hypnotic power of the word d-i-g-i-t-a-l. For many otherwise sane businessmen it's a direct synonym for b-i-l-l-i-o-n-s. I've seen it happen over and over. They have to learn the hard way. Just ask Perez...

Ken

A few random thoughts, in no particular order and of no particular value...

- I wouldn't be surprised to see some renewed cinema film contract heading KA's way. By the financial standards of the motion picture industry, it would cost a relative pittance to funnel enough business KA's way to keep the line alive, and doing so would keep their options open.

- Notwithstanding all the perceived "Kodak bashing" that takes place here, KA would be really, really smart to find some serious film guy inside of their company (I assume there is, in fact, such a person) and have them start posting here. Openly. Transparently. Tell it like it is. They really can't lose, by which I mean if the (true) message is "Things are percolating along just fine and sales are hanging in there..." then I expect most film users would feel a sense of relief and continue to pursue their craft and feel more confident in staying with film. And if the message is "Sales are falling off a cliff and we just aren't scaled properly to make money at these revenue levels so the bell is tolling right now..." then what's the result? Film users would buy up as much as they can, while they can, so KA can at least expect to sell off whatever stocks they have in the pipeline.

- I note that Amazon limits purchases of Portra 160 5-packs (120 format) to three at a time.

- Back to point #2....what is KA worried about? Freaking us out by telling us film sales are ending soon? Too late. Everyone already seems to be freaked.

- For the last year I've been making it a point to buy film at about twice the rate I'm shooting it. Freezer is starting to fill up.

- Eventually, one way or another, the EK film plant is going away. Best case scenario when the time comes is that EK/KA (not sure who owns it) releases the IP for all their processes and formulations to the public domain. Worst case, they think that the IP is worth an impossibly large amount of money, and it ends up orphaned...trapped inside of EK/KA. In the former case, I would hope that an Ilford-ish company comes along and resumes manufacturing at a scale that makes sense. In the latter case, its over.

AgX said:

Kodak manufacture machines and materials for the graphic industry. But they have been serving the graphic industry nearly their complete company history.

So this is not related to a change of CEO.

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exactly ...
kodak has been a printing company from the first days when they started selling the box cameras ..
the difference is now, 125+ years later, they are not a chemical photography printing company...
they have evolved with the rest of the image making industry ...

jnanian said:

exactly ...
kodak has been a printing company from the first days when they started selling the box cameras ..
the difference is now, 125+ years later, they are not a chemical photography printing company...
they have evolved with the rest of the image making industry ...

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That's a distinction without a difference. At least for those of us here on APUG, where by definition we are a "chemical photography" interest group. If EK has indeed "evolved" into something other than that, then they are of no further practical use to us. Right?

Modern birds also evolved from ancient dinosaurs. So they are now no longer dinosaurs. If your interest is in ancient dinosaurs, modern birds are of no practical value to you...

Ken

omaha said:

...I wouldn't be surprised to see some renewed cinema film contract heading KA's way...

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Not likely. Kodak Alaris neither manufactures motion picture film nor resells any made by Eastman Kodak Company.

omaha said:

Notwithstanding all the perceived "Kodak bashing" that takes place here, KA would be really, really smart to find some serious film guy inside of their company (I assume there is, in fact, such a person) and have them start posting here. Openly. Transparently. Tell it like it is..

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As a Kodak retiree (I can't believe it's been 21 years), if any of my contacts at KA were to ask me about participating on APUG, my advise would be NO. The reason? It's because of the preponderance of GOM commenters. I would suggest 'look but don't comment'.

Only key personnel are authorized to make public comments about future plans. KA has already solicited comments from photographers - and the appropriate KA people replied to them. The questions and replies have been posted on APUG in other threads.

I'm disappointed by the 'I want it now' attitude expressed by many here. The folks at KA have a daunting task ahead of them. Why not give them a break and wait a while to see what happens?

[For those unfamiliar with the abbreviation 'GOM' - it means Grumpy Old Man'.]

My point in posting links to their presence earlier was that Kodak-Alaris is out there and they are engaging with film shooters. Just not here. There are many other communities of film shooters out there besides APUG.

You know, I can't help thinking about the Long Live Film film done by Indie Film Lab that was supported by Kodak Alaris. Pretty much everyone on APUG hated it passionately and had nothing but negativity about the photographers who were featured. There is a new generation out there (myself included) that is moving to film, it's not just all about the GOM here on APUG!

Sal Santamaura said:

Not likely. Kodak Alaris neither manufactures motion picture film nor resells any made by Eastman Kodak Company.

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...but...it is the presence of the demand for MP film that allows the big machines to turn, no matter who is handling the sale.

adelorenzo said:

You know, I can't help thinking about the Long Live Film film done by Indie Film Lab that was supported by Kodak Alaris. Pretty much everyone on APUG hated it passionately and had nothing but negativity about the photographers who were featured.

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Actually I really liked it, and was surprised by the negative reactions. Part of the problem here is human nature. We've all been conditioned that no news is bad news. That's part of the survival instinct we all have. If I hear an unidentified rustle in the bushes, I have to assume it's bad news for me.

Lack of positive knowledge will almost always be filled in by monsters. Or negative assumptions. Look at the outer edges of any ancient maps of the known world. You won't find angels depicted out there. You'll find fire-breathing dragons. That's not by accident.

And so it is here. By refusing to share anything, positive or negative, the negative will be assumed by default. Why do you think Ilford maintains such a near continuous presence here? It's not because they like GOM. It's to proactively fill in the vacuum before the default bad assumptions take root.

It really wouldn't be such a bad idea for KA to consider doing the same. It would be in their own best interest to cultivate another significant segment of the analog film market, if that's a direction they wish to pursue in the first place. And until they tell us one way or the other, and tell us in no uncertain terms, people are always going to assume the worst.

Ken

If EK has indeed "evolved" into something other than that, then they are of no further practical use to us. Right?

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right ...

most of what they do ( EK + KA ) have nothing to do with chemical photography

Prof_Pixel said:

Only key personnel are authorized to make public comments about future plans.

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What I'm saying is that that sort of big-company, corporate approach is incompatible with the company that has a successful future in film sales, whether that be KA or someone else.

And that gets to KA's biggest challenge moving forward. It inherited a culture that was built around serving a mass-market. The future is going to be about serving a micro-market. The cultural and organizational requirements are completely different. At the risk of seeming too pessimistic, I don't see how a "billion dollar company" (and the KA CEO's video said over and over and over) will ever get there. And I really don't see how a guy coming out of Google and Motorola is going to get there either.

A small, nimble, modern company is just structurally different from what big corporations have historically looked like. The operative words are ones like "community" and "engagement". All the passion expressed here vis-a-vis KA is not a threat to them, its an opportunity. To the extent there is KA bashing, I submit that it is precisely because KA remains so opaque: They don't "get" it, and we are frustrated by that.

Companies that get it understand that they are not selling products to customers, they are building and nurturing a community.

BTW, I went to their "1000 words" blog. I note that there are exactly four comments on the entry for the CEO video, all of them spam.

As someone who manages several Wordpress blogs, that are constantly inundated with spam, it amuses me that they don't even know how to filter those out. That's not exactly a sterling recommendation for the extent of their customer engagement.

Ilford rocks. Adox is cool. And Foma makes some good papers and fairly good film.

Unfortunately, everyone who makes color film sucks, albeit the film itself (what types remain) is pretty darn good.

My future is looking mainly B&W analog and, eventually, digital color. And I won't do much of the latter because I'm just not interested in it, except as a recording medium for memories etc. Just the way it seems to be shaking out, and I can't say I'm surprised.

Dark horse wild card may be Ferrania, but color can't survive on one single ISO 100 transparency film.

Note that I will continue shooting color film as long as it's viable to do so, and in fact have a year's worth or so (at the rate I use it) of Provia 400X in the freezer now. I've been adding a few rolls as I can afford to.

What does GOM mean?

NDKodak said:

What does GOM mean?

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As I explained in my earlier message: [For those unfamiliar with the abbreviation 'GOM' - it means Grumpy Old Man'.]

I was thrilled to learn that Kodak film would survive the bankruptcy. I was also happy when I learned that Kodak Alaris was contacting photographers to discuss the film business. Even the non-film announcements are encouraging. They are not standing around but are trying to move ahead as a company.

I like Ilford and I shoot Ilford films. I print on Ilford paper. But I use a bunch of Kodak film and developing products. I shoot a lot of TMX. I even stockple some because I suspect it will hold up for a long time. But I shoot even more Kodak Portra film.

Black and white I can replace. I like TMX but Delta 100 is a terrific replacement. I know because I have worked with a bit of it already. The black and white options are covered.

But the color options are not, unless you intend to move to digital. I have no control but I hope that Kodak Portra films (as well as Ektar) survive, because I have no idea how I will replace them. I love Tri-X and the rest, but I really hope that Kodak Alaris is able to work this out or color film as we have known it will end.

Well I think that's about how we all feel who do both B&W and color.

But I'm glad my bigger interest is in B&W because that certainly feels more secure.

adelorenzo said:

You know, I can't help thinking about the Long Live Film film done by Indie Film Lab that was supported by Kodak Alaris. Pretty much everyone on APUG hated it passionately and had nothing but negativity about the photographers who were featured. There is a new generation out there (myself included) that is moving to film, it's not just all about the GOM here on APUG!

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Thanks for the link! I didn't know about it. It's kind of long, though. It's more of a an affirmation of "we love film." The stuff that I've seen posted in the past at Twin Lens Life has been far better at promoting the characteristics of film that anything Kodak has done, though. The comparison is three years old, and I'd like to see something like this again.

Ken Nadvornick said:

Actually I really liked it, and was surprised by the negative reactions. Part of the problem here is human nature. We've all been conditioned that no news is bad news.

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No news isn't part of the problem. There is plenty of news from Kodak Alaris. I've seen many posts, ads, what have you from KA and they are all, almost exclusively related to their digital products. The ONE exception is their silver recovery program. After 6 months of waiting, I think SOMETHING from KA about their future film plans is warranted.

I am NOT looking for KA to post here at APUG about film. Some in this thread build up the ridiculous straw man that this is what my posting is about. I dont care where the news is released.

From where I stand (sit actually) KA gives me no reason whatsoever to believe that they have ANY long term plans for their film holdings. No at all.

This is profoundly disappointing.

You want a commitment from Kodak to film well they still make it don't they actions speak louder than words imo.

If I also remember correctly they said numerous times that if someone buys it we'll make it if nobody buys we stop. So constantly bashing Kodak and moving to other mfg is not exactly the best way to have KA film in the future. As for Ilford if nobody buys their films they will stop as well.

adelorenzo said:

You know, I can't help thinking about the Long Live Film film done by Indie Film Lab that was supported by Kodak Alaris.

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That movie was done before Kodak Alaris had been established.

MDR said:

Mustafa is onto something
Not buying Tri-X is unamerican +1 this whole patriotism thing might even work change the packaging from yellow green to the american flag

New Kodak ad
Buying Ilford is unamerican true patriots use tri-x

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You're absolutely right. Stop using Ilford, Fomapan, Adox, Fuji, ... in the US and we'll stop using Kodak in the EU. Sounds like a good deal for us EU folks ;-)
And I'll never sing that Disney tune in my head ever again: "It's a small world after all ..."

MDR said:

Mustafa is onto something
Not buying Tri-X is unamerican +1 this whole patriotism thing might even work change the packaging from yellow green to the american flag

New Kodak ad
Buying Ilford is unamerican true patriots use tri-x

Click to expand...

Actually Kodak once did advertise in a patriotic context the origin of their products.