Jock Sturges selling his camera and print on Ebay...

Dave Parker · Jun 9, 2005

Frank Petronio said:
Nudity in itself is innocent. But march your naked teenage daughter down Fraternity Row and get back to me about the practicality.

Heck in this day and age, Naked Teenagers marching down Fraternity Row is common place, haven't you see the ad's on TV for 'Girls Gone Wild!'

LMFAO

Dave

Steve Hamley · Jun 9, 2005

Dave,

It's hard to argue with that!

This has been an interesting thread - although most of it has been off the original topic - which says more about the audience than it does Mr. Sturges.

I would offer a couple of final thoughts. One is that it is impossible to derive any non-artistic meaning from the expressions or lack thereof of models shot by a professional photographer. There may well have been "enthusiasm" or whatever you want to call it that wasn't photographed or was photographed and not shown to us. We don't know and anything else is no more than speculation. Certainly he picked his moments to trip the shutter.

Lastly, I have French friends and have spent a little time in France with them. The French have a different perspective on nudity, but in many ways they are probably more conservative about nudity than we are. In the US, anything in the public is pretty much fair game, but inappropriate ogling or photography (without asking) of public nudity on the French beaches (at least the ones I've visited) is likely to get you labeled as boorish or unsophisticated at best, and have a discussion with family members, boyfriends, or the authorities at worst. Although nudity is accepted as normal, inappropriate behavior is not tolerated as much as it is in the states. It isn't a bad way to be.

Steve

tim atherton · Jun 10, 2005

David H. Bebbington said:
There are a few other things, too! I do not patronize nude beaches in the UK, on climatic grounds alone, but there was an interesting documentary a little while back on British TV which revealed, among other things, that females (of any age) on such beaches are likely to find themselves being shadowed at a distance of just a few yards by assorted fruitcakes whacking off as much as their stamina will allow. It is apparently considered "etiquette" not to call the police, even though masturbation in public is illegal. I can imagine nothing nicer than dozing in the sun with someone like this for company, wondering the whole time if he/they are going to make an attempt at closer acquaintance, what STIs he/they may be suffering from and indeed whether he/they have previously indulged in solitary pleasure on the spot on which you are at present lying. I think that under these circumstances, any thoughts of being naked as nature intended, casting off the restrictions of bourgeois convention, etc. would tend to get lost in the static. But maybe it's all different in France!

Yep - that's the Brits for yer! Ever witnessed the erudite and sophisticated behaviour on the Costa del Whatnot....

George Papantoniou · Jun 11, 2005

David H. Bebbington said:
There are a few other things, too! I do not patronize nude beaches in the UK, on climatic grounds alone, but there was an interesting documentary a little while back on British TV which revealed, among other things, that females (of any age) on such beaches are likely to find themselves being shadowed at a distance of just a few yards by assorted fruitcakes whacking off as much as their stamina will allow. It is apparently considered "etiquette" not to call the police, even though masturbation in public is illegal. I can imagine nothing nicer than dozing in the sun with someone like this for company, wondering the whole time if he/they are going to make an attempt at closer acquaintance, what STIs he/they may be suffering from and indeed whether he/they have previously indulged in solitary pleasure on the spot on which you are at present lying. I think that under these circumstances, any thoughts of being naked as nature intended, casting off the restrictions of bourgeois convention, etc. would tend to get lost in the static. But maybe it's all different in France!

That's ridiculous. It's probably propaganda against nudist beaches... There is no reason at all for someone to get more excited seeing a nude person than seeing one that is dressed (at least, with a swimming suit).

I have been the target of two gay persons jerking off, once in Belgium (I was dressed in full outfit and jacket) and one in Greece, on the beach (I wore my swimming suit). They both had no problem mastrubating, without seeing me naked. I have no problem with that, they can do what they fancy as long as they don't bother me...

I have personally been quite excited by fantasising doing things to women I saw wearing clothes (swimming suits, for example), although I have never tried to masrtubate in public. I could do it though, if it was considered "correct" by the rules my society has made for me to follow...

TheFlyingCamera · Jun 11, 2005

George Papantoniou said:
That's ridiculous. It's probably propaganda against nudist beaches... There is no reason at all for someone to get more excited seeing a nude person than seeing one that is dressed (at least, with a swimming suit).

I have been the target of two gay persons jerking off, once in Belgium (I was dressed in full outfit and jacket) and one in Greece, on the beach (I wore my swimming suit). They both had no problem mastrubating, without seeing me naked. I have no problem with that, they can do what they fancy as long as they don't bother me...

I have personally been quite excited by fantasising doing things to women I saw wearing clothes (swimming suits, for example), although I have never tried to masrtubate in public. I could do it though, if it was considered "correct" by the rules my society has made for me to follow...

Just as an aside, I'd like to make it clear that as a gay person, not all of us are so inclined to stalk members of the same gender we find attractive and masturbate in public over them.

Getting back to the nude beach thing though, I've had some very interesting responses when photographing models on the beach in San Francisco (yes, there are actually several nude beaches in San Francisco, one of which is very scenic and very rarely busy). Once, I did have some strange person follow me and my model around, at a fair distance. All he did was watch, so in the end no harm, no foul, but it was a bit unnerving.

Another time I was out with a model on that same beach, we had gotten into what we were doing and lost sense of our surroundings, so we were a bit surprised when this dog came bounding in to the area, toting a tennis ball. Shortly thereafter, its owner came along, and his reaction was, "Nice day for it! Y'all enjoy yourselves!".

So not all Americans are sexually repressed victorian nutcases . Then again, this was in San Francisco.

jimgalli · Jun 11, 2005

$3800 for a $900 camera. I'm going to try to hire Jock to sell a few of my pieces. 50:50 split? 60:40? Or, I could just try the same thing as him. A schneider lens with one of my 8X10's would be worth.......well I could always wrap the lens in the 810 for a little extra protection.

Robert Hall · Jun 11, 2005

Better a lens than fish, Jim!

George Papantoniou · Jun 12, 2005

TheFlyingCamera said:
Just as an aside, I'd like to make it clear that as a gay person, not all of us are so inclined to stalk members of the same gender we find attractive and masturbate in public over them.

Certainly. I hope my story didn't sound like I was implying something like that !!!!
I only wanted to say that I don't think public nudity provokes this kind of reactions (that may seem extreme or anti-social to some people)...

cjarvis · Jun 13, 2005

Wow...all I said is that I want a prepubescent girl to come with that camera for that knd of money.

For the record I like Sturges' work...even if he might be a dirty old man.

And Kerik, you might want to keep your attacks private. k?

Kerik · Jun 13, 2005

cjarvis said:
And Kerik, you might want to keep your attacks private. k?

You mean like you do? Chad, I don't really need your advice, k?

cjarvis · Jun 13, 2005

Touché.

I tried to square this with you privately, but okay, bud...we can put it all out there for the public to see. What do you think at this point in my *life* or in the effort of trying to produce Double Exposure I could possibly have to lose? If you want to criticize a fine (and I do mean FINE) publication of which you were a part - and I'm proud to say so - go right ahead. (Oh, the irony!) If you'd like to criticize me personally, well, it won't get you anywhere, but please, go right ahead if it will make you feel that you've accomplished something, however petty that something may be.

bill schwab · Jun 13, 2005

cjarvis said:
Wow...all I said is that I want a prepubescent girl to come with that camera for that knd of money.

Actually it was a tad more than that...

cjarvis on 6-07-2005 said:
Over $2500 with 5+ days left. Too high...unless the camera actually comes with a few prepubescent French girls who have looks in their eyes as if some dirty old fart with a view camera just stole pieces of their souls.

Yeah... that's how I remember it. A little more judgemental.

Bill

Kerik · Jun 13, 2005

cjarvis said:
If you'd like to criticize me personally, well, it won't get you anywhere, but please, go right ahead if it will make you feel that you've accomplished something, however petty that something may be.

Your own words and behavior say more about you than I ever could.

David H. Bebbington · Jun 14, 2005

Kerik said:
Your own words and behavior say more about you than I ever could.

Does anyone apart from the two protagonists know what is going on here? Does anyone care?

cjarvis · Jun 14, 2005

Hell, I'm one of them, and I don't! Kerik's angry...justifiably so. At this point I will address anything publicly Mr. Kouklis would like to tackle, but I'm not into the petty personal attack scene.

And back on topic...

You indeed are correct, billschwab...a little more judgemental than that. But, hmmm, apparently I struck a nerve, because it seems to me that about half of the folks who sounded out re Mr. Sturges' work agree with the analysis. I'm not going to apologize for my observation/judgement/joke, for I am not the only one to have made it, and most assuredly it will be made again by someone else down the line.

TPPhotog · Jun 14, 2005

David H. Bebbington said:
Does anyone apart from the two protagonists know what is going on here? Does anyone care?

NOPE !!! Not me! The auction has ended on what looks like a very nice camera, at what I assume is a collectors price. That should be end of story but I have a feeling with this thread ........ :rolleyes:

smieglitz · Jun 14, 2005

TPPhotog said:
NOPE !!! Not me! The auction has ended on what looks like a very nice camera, at what I assume is a collectors price. That should be end of story but I have a feeling with this thread ........ :rolleyes:

I wonder if the robotic con artists on eBay will offer second chance offers for another identical camera and original print new in the box and with full international 2-year warranty to the unsucessful bidders in that auction. :rolleyes:

Joe

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