JOBO vs Ilford

[Lanthanum]

Hello everyone

I am just starting with JOBO rotary processing of B&W film and notice a disagreement between the instructions from my chemical manufacturer (Ilford) and the instructions from JOBO.

JOBO says:

Note 5: JOBO tests have shown that B/W film processing in a rotary processor such as the ATL-1500 is most even and consistent when a 5 minute pre-wet is used.

Ilford says:

Follow any guidance given by the processor manufacturer when adjusting process times for these types of processors. However, generally we do not recommend using a pre-rinse as it can lead to uneven development.

I am using a JOBO ATL-1500 with Ilford Ilfotec HC and Kodak Tri-X or FujiFilm ACROS 100. I have just started and plan to use the default 5 minutes B&W program which includes a 5 minute rinse.

My tap water is at about 15 degrees Celsius. I have a mixing valve in the post, but at the moment that is the water temperature going into the JOBO.

Any advice or experiences you can share with me? Thank you for any help.

 

[Lanthanum]

It seems that this might be an FAQ, sorry everyone, will do my homework next time! If you wish to add any thoughts or additional tips, I would be very interested.

 

[pentaxuser]

John Tinsley wrote a very good book on Rotary Processing and for B&W he recommended a 5 minute pre-rinse which for his films kept the times the same as Ilford recommends for inversion agitation. Ilford simply see no point in a pre-rinse but while it might not recommend a pre-rinse, "not recommend" is not the same as saying it will cause problems. Simon Galley, a former Ilford executive who used to visit APUG said that in Ilford's opinion a pre-rinse was not necessary

Do you do all your processing at 15C? If at all possible I'd advocate a processing temperature as close to a minimum of 20C as possible

Every developer might work at 15C but I'd be a little nervous at such a low processing temperature.

pentaxuser

 

[Lachlan Young]

The ATL-1500 will warm the necessary chemicals to the correct temps - 24c in the case of BW process - only the washes are at the temperature of the inlet. If you are concerned about the quality of the wash you can test for residual hypo & carry out additional washing with a 3350 if you desire.

My experience with the ATL-1500 has been that it has been absolutely fine for BW processing.

 

[Sirius Glass]

I recommend John Tinsley's book. I have found that prewetting when using a Jobo processor provides great results. However John Tinsley and Kodak specifically state that when developing Kodak Tri-X film in Kodak XTOL not to use prewetting. I do not prewet with Tri-X and XTOL.

As far as processing times, I found that usually the information supplied by Ilford and Kodak for rotary processing to be good. However, I found that when using replenished STOL with HP5+ the development time must be increased to achieve a dense enough negative, especially with 4"x5" film. In general, I find that an across the board of 15% development time when using rotary processing to be unnecessary, rather use the recommend rotary development times given by the film manufacturers for each film.

 

[Lachlan Young]

I think the other key thing that is getting lost amongst the generic information on running Jobos in this thread is that the ATL-1500 is a relatively closed-loop system - yes you can alter some of the programmed features etc, but fundamentally it's a machine that you put the film & chemistry into, switch on & come back when the process is finished.

 

[Lanthanum]

Thanks pentaxuser, Lachlan and Sirius Glass for sharing your wisdom!

Yes, the ATL heats the water to 24 minutes, so i believe it is the pre-rinse and final wash that is at low temperature. Once my mixing valve arrives and is installed that issue will go away.

Does the warning not to use pre-wetting with XTOL and Tri-X also apply to Ilford HC and Tri-X?

I have ordered a copy of John Tinsley's book, very excited to see it, thanks!

 

[AgX]

...the instructions from JOBO.

JOBO says:

Note 5: JOBO tests have shown that B/W film processing in a rotary processor such as the ATL-1500 is most even and consistent when a 5 minute pre-wet is used.

I got the manual for the ATL-1500 in front of me. There is no word on a pre-wet.
Not surprising as rinsing before developing was not a topic in Germany.
Actually I learned about such as common procedure only here at Apug.

I guess your instructions are from someone else.

 

[Lanthanum]

Kodak has rotary development time for HC-110 1:31 at 2.5 minutes for 24 degrees Celsius. The shortest JOBO program for B&W is 5 minutes, so double the time! Does the same time apply for Ilford HC 1+31?

 

[Lanthanum]

I got the manual for the ATL-1500 in front of me. There is no word on a pre-wet.
Not surprising as rinsing before developing was not a topic in Germany.
Actually I learned about such as common procedure only here at Apug.

I guess your instructions are from someone else.

I have two JOBO ATL-1500 manuals. One has this note (in section 9.3), the other does not.

 

[pentaxuser]

I recommend John Tinsley's book. I have found that prewetting when using a Jobo processor provides great results. However John Tinsley and Kodak specifically state that when developing Kodak Tri-X film in Kodak XTOL not to use prewetting.

Interesting. My edition of Tinsley's book is 1992 and the only developers I can find that he mentions in his section on developing monochrome film are all Ilford's

According to Covington Innovations Xtol only came on to the market in 1996 so I assume that John Tinsley produced later versions of his book although every source I have looked at only quotes 1992.

Which version do you have, Sirius?

Thanks

pentaxuser

 

[Alan9940]

FWIW, I have used a CPP-2 for 20+ years with 2500 series tanks for roll film and both 4x5 and 8x10 Expert Drums for sheet film and I have always done a 5 min pre-wash with a slew of different manufacturer's B&W film.

 

[Doc W]

I have an ATL-3 and I use a 3 minute pre-rinse for Ilford FP4 sheet film. I use a Paterson inversion tank for 120 film and in that case I don't use a pre-rinse. So far so good.

My problem is development times. Jobo does not recommend less than 5 minutes which for my materials (HC-110 and FP4), means that I cannot get N minus development. Normal development for me is 4'45", just pushing the edge a little. I use the 3 minute rinse so that my development times can be a little longer. If a 5 minute rinse would help, I would use it, but I think that I am not going to gain much time with the extra 2 minutes. In any case, I have not tested that yet.

 

[Bob Carnie]

I have been using Jobo since the early 90's for film processing.

C41- no prewash
ID11 - no prewash
PMK - prewash normal water- distilled for Dev

Hope this helps

 

[Chris Livsey]

According to Covington Innovations Xtol only came on to the market in 1996 so I assume that John Tinsley produced later versions of his book although every source I have looked at only quotes 1992.

Which version do you have, Sirius?

Thanks

pentaxuser[/QUOTE]

I also am only aware of one edition and a quick search shows the current Kodak data sheet on Tri-X does not mention a pre-wash at all:

http://imaging.kodakalaris.com/sites/prod/files/files/products/f4017_TriX.pdf
Dated Feb 16 and includes rotary tube processing times where I would have thought pre-wash recommendations or cautions would be listed if this was important for XTOL, for which times are given both stock and 1:1

The XTOL data sheet March 08 being the latest AFAIK does not mention pre-wash either.
http://imaging.kodakalaris.com/sites/prod/files/files/resources/j109.pdf

I know pre-wash or not is an FAQ, almost a war topic, but the only specific advice I can find that is current is from Kodak for a pre-wash to remove Remjet, Kodak ECN2 Pre-Wash

I would have thought a simple test would be to expose two test films identically and process both ways then examine the results.

 

[Sirius Glass]

Interesting. My edition of Tinsley's book is 1992 and the only developers I can find that he mentions in his section on developing monochrome film are all Ilford's

According to Covington Innovations Xtol only came on to the market in 1996 so I assume that John Tinsley produced later versions of his book although every source I have looked at only quotes 1992.

Which version do you have, Sirius?

Thanks

pentaxuser

1992, but I know that I read John Tinsley stating that he had streaking with Tri-X and XTOL when pre-wetting was used. I have to see if I can find the article.

 

[Peter De Smidt]

Back in the old days, Jobo-USA staff, e.g. Ricki Stauffer and Ken Owen, would regularly post on forums. Jobo-usa's 5 minute pre-wash recommendation had nothing to do with quality, according to them. In their testing they found that it was the best way to match film manufacturer inversion development times with Jobo processing. If you were willing to figure out the times on your own, or if the film manufacturer did the research for you, such as Kodak did with X-tol, then there was no advantage, they claimed, from using a pre-rinse. I never use one for BW film in my Jobo. It's an unnecessary step. Using one, though, is unlikely to be a problem.

 

[Gerald C Koch]

Despite what Simon said I have difficulty equating the two phrases "not recommended" with "not necessary." You must ask why Ilford did not say" not necessary." It certainly would have prevented a lot of consternation.

 

[MattKing]

Despite what Simon said I have difficulty equating the two phrases "not recommended" with "not necessary." You must ask why Ilford did not say" not necessary." It certainly would have prevented a lot of consternation.

I'm wondering whether this might be an example of an English phrase that has slightly different meanings on the two sides of the Atlantic.

 

[Gerald C Koch]

I'm wondering whether this might be an example of an English phrase that has slightly different meanings on the two sides of the Atlantic.

Try using the two phrases in a sentence. "It is not recommended to skip breakfast." Which has an entirely different connotation from "It is not necessary to skip breakfast." The first sentence implies that something bad or at least undesirable will happen while the second is more neutral.

 

[MattKing]

Try using the two phrases in a sentence. "It is not recommended to skip breakfast." Which has an entirely different connotation from "It is not necessary to skip breakfast." The first sentence implies that something bad or at least undesirable will happen while the second is more neutral.

I think you misunderstand Gerald.

"recommended" can be used to differentiate between acceptable and preferred. As in "the three options will all work, but the third one is the one that is most recommended".

The cultural difference would arise if in England "not recommended" is likely to be used in place of "not preferred" rather than "not acceptable".

Sort of like they refer to "taking a decision" rather than "making a decision".

 

[Chris Livsey]

Does this clarify Ilford's position with respect to their films?
My BOLD

The official ILFORD recommendation is to not use a pre-soak on any ILFORD films. The reason is that all ILFORD films have a wetting agent incorporated into the emulsion, which helps the developer absorb very quickly and evenly. A pre-soak will remove the wetting agent, possibly leading to less consistency in the development action.

However, Jobo recommends a pre-soak with their processor, and we have heard reports from some individuals that got streaking when they did not do a pre-soak; so for Jobo type processing, we recommend using a pre-soak to help prevent streaking.
If using a pre-soak, the time should be long enough to ensure that all wetting agent is removed. Although shorter times will probably be sufficient, we recommend using the full 5 minutes as recommended by Jobo.

David Carper
ILFORD Technical Service
Source:
http://www.ilfordphoto.com/photocom...Quote&REPLY_ID=31852&TOPIC_ID=5084&FORUM_ID=6

 

[Chris Livsey]

Success, well partially Sirius, this is where NO pre-wash with XTOL is stated by Jobo: Page 2 in red ring no less !!

Dead Link Removed
04/01/04

BUT we are back to the debate above about "Not Recommended" some commentators have stated this is because the rotary times given by Kodak are without a pre-soak not because of some incompatibility or "harmful" effects.

There is reference to an earlier Jobo Quarterly with an section on the then new XTOL stating:

PREWET ? For years now JOBO has suggested that black and white films undergo a five minute prewet prior to the introduction of developer. Using a prewet before the XTOL developer resulted in lower Dmax than when the developer was used.
http://www.jobo-usa.com/images/archive/JQ13.pdf

 

[pentaxuser]

Thanks. That's 10 out of 10 in my book for your research, Chris which has cast useful light on Sirius' comment on Xtol. Not sure I would have had the stamina

pentaxuser

 

[darkroommike]

I have an ATL-3 and I use a 3 minute pre-rinse for Ilford FP4 sheet film. I use a Paterson inversion tank for 120 film and in that case I don't use a pre-rinse. So far so good.

My problem is development times. Jobo does not recommend less than 5 minutes which for my materials (HC-110 and FP4), means that I cannot get N minus development. Normal development for me is 4'45", just pushing the edge a little. I use the 3 minute rinse so that my development times can be a little longer. If a 5 minute rinse would help, I would use it, but I think that I am not going to gain much time with the extra 2 minutes. In any case, I have not tested that yet.

You could use a prewet AND a more dilute developer.