Jobo developing...

[joshua029]

Alright folks and experts, I had a question about developing with these Jobo things. First off, I'm being mentored by someone who worked for (teaching and testing) Kodak, world known name and all that. While I don't consider myself to be new to most darkroom equipment, I know nothing about these tools. This guy, who I won't mention by name, has been knocking the processes I have been taught about film (shooting and developing). I can do it and pretty well, he's just trying to make me better.

While learning more about the alternative process he excels at, I am told (and fully believe) that I could do better. After reviewing my 35mm and 4x5 negatives, he said it pretty obvious that I'm over agitating during the development process (just by looking at them with his eyes). He suggested me getting a Jobo developing kit. These are getting harder to find and are still quite expensive but that's not the problem.

My question would be to you guys is: how much easier / better will these things develop film as opposed to developing by hand? Is it worth the money? What are your opinions about the negative quality from these vs manually developing? I've done a lot of research myself about these and it doesn't seem as if it's much of an improvement over developing everything in a tank and agitating by hand. Of course, everything is tightly controlled (temps, times, agitation, etc.) but I just don't see where it is going to be that much of an improvement. But I've been wrong before...

 

[markbarendt]

I use a JOBO CPA2 with the lift and it is great. It is easy to be really consistent with it.

JOBOs use constant rotating agitation so I don't get why your mentor thinks it might solve an over-agitation problem unless you are working your film like a can of spray paint.

Here's an interesting article that may be helpful (there was a url link here which no longer exists)

 

[joshua029]

He made it clear I'm that I'm over agitating, which could very well be the case. I don't think it's spray paint bad...

 

[joshua029]

And thanks for the link! That was very helpful and I agreed that relearning the basics (mentioned in its 2nd post) could very well be where I'm at in my fairly short film developing "life."

 

[markbarendt]

I'd ask him to tell you how he determined that it was too much agitation and how the negative should be/look different.

To that end it might be interesting to do three rolls of the same subject matter at the same exposure and then develop one normally, one with less than normal time, and the last with less than normal agitation. Then I'd ask him to show you how they print differently.

When I use the JOBO I have to reduce the time I develop my films for, versus my (Ilford's) hand agitation method.

IMO the proof though is in the printing and my negatives from these two methods simply don't print enough different to matter.

 

[joshua029]

I did ask. He gave me an answer (starting with the edges in) and examples from scans. I too didn't see how it made a huge difference since I had no trouble printing anything on VC papers and the signs didn't show up. But he's getting me to create perfect negatives so he started over from the first steps of the entire process on. It may sound like I'm complaining, but I've very thankful. Especially in our digital age! His 50 years exp doing this will make me better. I've sold many pieces, been published and won quite a few $$$ through juried galleries, but I'll take any chance I get to get better.

 

[BMbikerider]

Jobo themselves gave out an instruction that rotary agitation should not be the constant one way rotation. The times should be reduced by 15%, but actually I prefer 20% especially for slides. As for other benefits, you have a steady temperature and it is no way as messy, no spillages when pouring chemicals or rinsing water away.
The only time I don't rotary process is when I am using Rodinal. This depends on very little agitation to keep the properties of accutance on the edges of the different tones to give an impression of enhanced sharpness.

 

[Neal]

Dear Joashua029,

If you can afford one (and a CPE-2+ without a lift can be had for <$300) a Jobo is the best thing that ever happened to my film developing life. I panicked at one point and rather than buying one I built mine (no lift) from readily available industrial parts (miniscule cost savings but the drive is robust). If you can save for a bit, a CPP system with a lift would be the bees knees. The consistency in my developing has helped dramatically.

Now for the big question. How can you be agitating more than a Jobo? Uneven development is generally the result of too little rather than too much.

Back to the question. I love the Jobo system and will not go back to hand agitation even if I have to figure out how to build my own tanks.

Neal Wydra

 

[markbarendt]

I'd be thankful the help too and I'm not trying to discourage you from getting a JOBO, it is a good tool.

I'd be interested to know what the problem he was trying to solve is? Is the problem caused by sloshing sideways or similar?

What I'm getting at here is that the JOBO is a constant agitation system and will effect the shape of the film curve and you will need to find new development times as BMBikerider did and maybe even adjust your EI.

 

[TheFlyingCamera]

Yeah - the biggest gain you'll get from the Jobo is consistency of development. I got mine when I started doing lots of large format sheet film (5x7, 5x12, 8x10, 6.5x8.5), because I can't tray process multiple sheets without scratching to save my life. It solved that problem entirely, and it guaranteed consistent temperatures throughout the process so I could eliminate that variable, and it also enabled me to use less chemistry (1 liter of developer for 5 8x10 or 5x12 sheets!).

Without seeing your negatives that he's critiquing for over-agitation, it's hard to say what/why. If you're doing your 4x5 sheets in a Yankee tank or other similar, then yeah, absolutely, ditch the tank! I found the tank was causing me enormous headaches with surge at the edges of my sheets, not so horrible if you're enlarging, but if you're contact printing, it's horrible because a 5% crop from a 4x5 inch print makes that awfully small.

 

[CatLABS]

These are getting harder to find and are still quite expensive but that's not the problem.

While anything Jobo is (and never was) not cheap, it is most definitely not hard to find.

My question would be to you guys is: how much easier / better will these things develop film as opposed to developing by hand? Is it worth the money? What are your opinions about the negative quality from these vs manually developing? I've done a lot of research myself about these and it doesn't seem as if it's much of an improvement over developing everything in a tank and agitating by hand. Of course, everything is tightly controlled (temps, times, agitation, etc.) but I just don't see where it is going to be that much of an improvement. But I've been wrong before...

As was pointed out a Jobo processor can help with consistency. Other things it can do is help you with dialing in exact times and exposure levels, as well as eliminate any questions about "technique", as the machine will do that for you. There are other advantages that have to do with ease of use, and if you ever shoot sheet film, expert drums will offer you unparalleled results.

 

[jp498]

I can see where he's coming from with regard to a teaching perspective. When I took photography class in high school, I'd already been developing film consistently for 3 years. Almost nobody could develop consistently in class. It must have drove the teacher crazy. Consistency is probably the biggest problem with darkroom work and I'd expect teachers to be sensitive to it.

Older B&W practitioners are passing on skills acquired before VC/MG paper became common. They probably got tasked not with making a good negative and print, but making a good negative and print on #2 paper. We've got it easier now.

I just picked up a used Jobo machine and drums, not for consistency, but to save time and make 8x10 developing more pleasant than trays in the dark.

 

[Bob Carnie]

There are jobo techno labs out there for dip and dunk to purchase, where would I get parts for this type of processor?

While anything Jobo is (and never was) not cheap, it is most definitely not hard to find.



As was pointed out a Jobo processor can help with consistency. Other things it can do is help you with dialing in exact times and exposure levels, as well as eliminate any questions about "technique", as the machine will do that for you. There are other advantages that have to do with ease of use, and if you ever shoot sheet film, expert drums will offer you unparalleled results.

 

[jerrybro]

Jobo. It can get expensive. It can be a pain in the butt to set up and take down for use if you do not have a dedicated darkroom. It is consistent. For some of us (me) it was the key to getting a standard repeatable process that provided reliable negatives. I'm never going back to my pre-Jobo days and have considered buying a 2nd one.

 

[Bob Carnie]

I bought the new CPP3 , good machine but not for some of the processes I do, I still use stainless steel, also 12 litre tanks and the 4x5 and 8x10 holders.

I am also interested in setting up to be the last person standing for colour and bw processing. I will use a technolab dip and dunk system for this.

People are hoarding all the old film, C41 and Bw and it is an absolute pain to load if not impossible due to curl on my Jobo reels.
Therefore we will offer an hanging system of a technolab where the film hangs and is weighted so no issue loading into the chems,
with film scans of each roll to compete for the film process and scan mail order business.

Jobo. It can get expensive. It can be a pain in the butt to set up and take down for use if you do not have a dedicated darkroom. It is consistent. For some of us (me) it was the key to getting a standard repeatable process that provided reliable negatives. I'm never going back to my pre-Jobo days and have considered buying a 2nd one.

 

[joshua029]

Well, for 4x5 I stick with Phil Davis' BTZS system to develop. He's mainly worried about my 35mm works at this point. And to answer an earlier question, let's just say that it's highly possible that I over agitate because I've picked up some bad habits while doing this on my own. I won't go into further detail because I don't wanna get made fun of.

I didn't start my photography years until I got to my Sophomore year of college so I am still fairly new to this and could use improvements on my methods. He has some of my negs which I asked to very harshly critique because I want to get better. While my zone system understanding is decent, I sometime get some negs that have some highlight issues. Fixing my methods couldn't hurt at all for either format. So he's basically starting me over from the beginning.

And nd I deal a lot with grade 2 paper for my alternative processes.

 

[fotch]

I use the Jobo for color at the 100F temperature, negative & prints. For B&W, I use it for film if its convenient however, my regular tanks work just as good. While I like my Jobo, I would not expect it to solve any errors in processing. Easier, in some cases, yes.

 

[markbarendt]

Joshua,

Your mistake is probably something we all have done.

 

[polyglot]

The consistency and reliability alone are worth it, but for me the biggest advantages are the ability to process 6+ rolls per batch and that fixing and washing film is no longer a huge chore. And to do colour (film and prints). And if you use it to develop prints, you save a huge amount of darkroom space compared to a row of potentially-very-large trays.

 

[CatLABS]

There are jobo techno labs out there for dip and dunk to purchase, where would I get parts for this type of processor?

Bob, contact me directly, and i can get you all the techno lab parts and service you need.

 

[jerrybro]

With sheet film I tink the method that works for you is all about the volume of negatives you have to deal with. I tried 4x5 in trays, but I couldn't get it down. Too fumble fingered. I then went BTZS but in home made tubes. Worked great, when I only had a sheet or two at a time, a half dozen sheets and I felt like the guy on Ed Sullivan spinning plates on poles. The Jobo solved that problem. I can do 12 sheets at a time without screwing them up.

Before I bought the processor I bought a 2 reel 2500 series tank with the magnet. I found a Beseler tube roller for cheap and modified it. I removed 1 wheel and added a shaft with a bolt and large washer that would fit the magnet that sticks out the side of the motor base. Clamp it to the counter and I had a bi directional rotating drive that worked with the Jobo tanks. Using this is what convinced me that a Jobo was the way to go. I still have it in the basement somewhere, I'll dig it out and post pictures in the equipment forum.

Well, for 4x5 I stick with Phil Davis' BTZS system to develop. He's mainly worried about my 35mm works at this point. And to answer an earlier question, let's just say that it's highly possible that I over agitate because I've picked up some bad habits while doing this on my own. I won't go into further detail because I don't wanna get made fun of.

I didn't start my photography years until I got to my Sophomore year of college so I am still fairly new to this and could use improvements on my methods. He has some of my negs which I asked to very harshly critique because I want to get better. While my zone system understanding is decent, I sometime get some negs that have some highlight issues. Fixing my methods couldn't hurt at all for either format. So he's basically starting me over from the beginning.

And nd I deal a lot with grade 2 paper for my alternative processes.