Jobo CPA (1st Gen): Which tank/reel for 4x5" film?!

[four-by-five]

The tank and reel have arrived. I fitted a magnet to the tank, tried it on the CPA and it (almost) "works" (not really).
To be a little more precise: The tank's outer dimensions fit the CPA trough very, very tightly. It sits at a bit of an angle, just a small bit.
That angle is enough to keep it from turning reliably. As a matter of fact, the CPA has trouble giving it even a full turn. Rotation speed 1 is certainly too weak to get it moving in the first place, speed 2 gets it moving but can't really turn it over either.
After detaching the tank again, I had to fix the position of the CPA's magnet mount to get it back into working order with other tanks. I conclude that using the 2520 tank on the CPA will cause damage to the processor and not work.

However, I found that the 2509n reel fits perfectly inside my 4204 Colordrum. I suspect it works with the larger Colordrums too but I didn't test that. Even the 4204 is not so efficient (chemistry-wise) when holding just a single 2509n reel as two would likely fit into it.

At this point, I'm seriously considering getting a newer processor, preferably one with a lift. That's a shame, really, especially because the CPA does everything else I need it to do with perfection. But most of my work is in 4x5 so I need to process that in rotation, too. Any suggestions on how to move forward here?

I'll try to use the 2509n reel with the 4204 drum over the next few days and will report back. As for my previous requests, I have still received no answer and I guess I won't ever get one at this point.

 

[Mick Fagan]

Hmm, now I have a better understanding of what you are trying to do.

There are a few ways to develop 4x5" film in Jobo processors.

One way is to use the 2500 series drums and the 2509n reel(s). The minimum is either their print test drum or dedicated 4x5" single reel drum. These are identical drums, just with a different label on the exterior of the drum. You can very successfully develop 4x5" film this way and the evenness of development across the whole sheet of film(s) is very good.

The best results from a technical viewpoint will be with four sheets of film, not six. I ascertained this by developing Kodak C41 test sheets, one with four sheets, the other with six sheets. The differences were really marginal, but four sheets only with the centre position vacant worked best. The four sheet on a reel essentially matched the Dip "N" Dunk at my work (professional lab), while the results from the six sheets per reel were ever so slightly not even across an entire sheet. I had 20 test sheets of film and did two runs of six and two runs of four, then these sheets were assessed by our lab technician at my work.

Jobo themselves, in their catalogue 9/86 DG 55T page 14, states, "The 2509 reel holds six sheets of film. For critical processing of even backgrounds, it's recommended that only four sheets be loaded onto the reel. Sheet film loader 2508 and the appropriate film guide should be used." The 4x5" sheet film guide is item No. 2512.

Now this publication was before the introduction of the 2509n reels became available, but my experience is that for the highest standard of evenness of processing, four sheets is pretty much the go.

The difference is virtually negligible, but there. I only ever did four sheets at a time in my Jobo 2500 system. I bought a Jobo CPE2 processor with an accessory lift, it lasted around 30 years before it finally died. It literally did thousands of rolls of 135 36 frame C41 and B&W film, not to mention about 1,000 rolls of E6. Then there was the plethora of 4x5" sheet film, C41 and B&W. On top of that I did RA4 colour prints for a couple of years before getting a Durst Printo paper processor; so it had a pretty hard life for a strictly amateur processor.

If you are able to find a Jobo CPP-2 or CPA-2 processor with a Jobo-Lift, then you can use one of the 3000 series of drums. These are generally called Expert drums, the only Expert film drum I have used, which was at my work, was Film Drum 3013, it is capable of doing 5 sheets of 4x5" at a time in 330ml of chemistry.

I am completely unaware of your financial situation, your film throughput, or just how hard you intend to go. All I can say is, the higher up the food chain you go with Jobo equipment for sheet film processing, the better your output will be; within reason that is.

Being located in Germany, as you are, is possibly the best place in the world for secondhand Jobo processors. I was a frequent visitor to Germany in the mid to late eighties and became very friendly with Kienzle Fotohaus in Waiblingen. I couldn't believe the amount of Jobo processors they sold in their normal (ish) Fotohaus. I one day asked just how many did they sell and was staggered to hear that they were moving around 600 CPE2 units per year and around half that number of the higher end processors combined. I believed these figures as almost every time I visited, someone seemed to be walking out the door with a processor under their arm.

The fact that 5 rolls of 135 film in a Jobo CPE2 used 600ml of chemistry was probably the reason Ilford supplied 600ml packets of ID11 B&W film developer in Germany. I have never seen Ilford ID11 film developer in 600ml packaging anywhere else in the world, other than Germany.

As an aside, if you are ever contemplating hand inversion developing of 4x5" film, then the Stearman Press SP-445 is quite brilliant. I have the original Kickstarter version.

 

[mshchem]

I really like 2509n for developing 4x5, of course I use IR goggles to load. I have Expert drums as well, I just prefer the reels.
Hope to hear a positive report !!

 

[RalphLambrecht]

The tank and reel have arrived. I fitted a magnet to the tank, tried it on the CPA and it (almost) "works" (not really).
To be a little more precise: The tank's outer dimensions fit the CPA trough very, very tightly. It sits at a bit of an angle, just a small bit.
That angle is enough to keep it from turning reliably. As a matter of fact, the CPA has trouble giving it even a full turn. Rotation speed 1 is certainly too weak to get it moving in the first place, speed 2 gets it moving but can't really turn it over either.
After detaching the tank again, I had to fix the position of the CPA's magnet mount to get it back into working order with other tanks. I conclude that using the 2520 tank on the CPA will cause damage to the processor and not work.

However, I found that the 2509n reel fits perfectly inside my 4204 Colordrum. I suspect it works with the larger Colordrums too but I didn't test that. Even the 4204 is not so efficient (chemistry-wise) when holding just a single 2509n reel as two would likely fit into it.

At this point, I'm seriously considering getting a newer processor, preferably one with a lift. That's a shame, really, especially because the CPA does everything else I need it to do with perfection. But most of my work is in 4x5 so I need to process that in rotation, too. Any suggestions on how to move forward here?

I'll try to use the 2509n reel with the 4204 drum over the next few days and will report back. As for my previous requests, I have still received no answer and I guess I won't ever get one at this point.

Getting a newer processor is the way to go. That's what I did, but I never saw the need for the lift.

 

[four-by-five]

Hmm, now I have a better understanding of what you are trying to do.

There are a few ways to develop 4x5" film in Jobo processors.

One way is to use the 2500 series drums and the 2509n reel(s). The minimum is either their print test drum or dedicated 4x5" single reel drum. These are identical drums, just with a different label on the exterior of the drum. You can very successfully develop 4x5" film this way and the evenness of development across the whole sheet of film(s) is very good.

The best results from a technical viewpoint will be with four sheets of film, not six. I ascertained this by developing Kodak C41 test sheets, one with four sheets, the other with six sheets. The differences were really marginal, but four sheets only with the centre position vacant worked best. The four sheet on a reel essentially matched the Dip "N" Dunk at my work (professional lab), while the results from the six sheets per reel were ever so slightly not even across an entire sheet. I had 20 test sheets of film and did two runs of six and two runs of four, then these sheets were assessed by our lab technician at my work.

Jobo themselves, in their catalogue 9/86 DG 55T page 14, states, "The 2509 reel holds six sheets of film. For critical processing of even backgrounds, it's recommended that only four sheets be loaded onto the reel. Sheet film loader 2508 and the appropriate film guide should be used." The 4x5" sheet film guide is item No. 2512.

Now this publication was before the introduction of the 2509n reels became available, but my experience is that for the highest standard of evenness of processing, four sheets is pretty much the go.

The difference is virtually negligible, but there. I only ever did four sheets at a time in my Jobo 2500 system. I bought a Jobo CPE2 processor with an accessory lift, it lasted around 30 years before it finally died. It literally did thousands of rolls of 135 36 frame C41 and B&W film, not to mention about 1,000 rolls of E6. Then there was the plethora of 4x5" sheet film, C41 and B&W. On top of that I did RA4 colour prints for a couple of years before getting a Durst Printo paper processor; so it had a pretty hard life for a strictly amateur processor.

If you are able to find a Jobo CPP-2 or CPA-2 processor with a Jobo-Lift, then you can use one of the 3000 series of drums. These are generally called Expert drums, the only Expert film drum I have used, which was at my work, was Film Drum 3013, it is capable of doing 5 sheets of 4x5" at a time in 330ml of chemistry.

I am completely unaware of your financial situation, your film throughput, or just how hard you intend to go. All I can say is, the higher up the food chain you go with Jobo equipment for sheet film processing, the better your output will be; within reason that is.

Being located in Germany, as you are, is possibly the best place in the world for secondhand Jobo processors. I was a frequent visitor to Germany in the mid to late eighties and became very friendly with Kienzle Fotohaus in Waiblingen. I couldn't believe the amount of Jobo processors they sold in their normal (ish) Fotohaus. I one day asked just how many did they sell and was staggered to hear that they were moving around 600 CPE2 units per year and around half that number of the higher end processors combined. I believed these figures as almost every time I visited, someone seemed to be walking out the door with a processor under their arm.

The fact that 5 rolls of 135 film in a Jobo CPE2 used 600ml of chemistry was probably the reason Ilford supplied 600ml packets of ID11 B&W film developer in Germany. I have never seen Ilford ID11 film developer in 600ml packaging anywhere else in the world, other than Germany.

As an aside, if you are ever contemplating hand inversion developing of 4x5" film, then the Stearman Press SP-445 is quite brilliant. I have the original Kickstarter version.

Interesting to know about the consistency improvement when using only four sheets, I wasn't aware of that.
I believe the 2509n shouldn't be too different to the original 2509 in that regard.

The Expert drums and required processors are mostly out of the question for me because of their plainly ridiculous prices. Hundreds of Euros for some specially molded plastic?!
My throughput is pretty low, I usually go out and shoot every other weekend or so and then only 1-4 sheets at a time. It just doesn't make sense to spend so much money here in my case (I think).

As for the used market: Yes, there are quite a few processors listed on local classifieds as well as eBay. I'm currently looking for a good deal on a newer processor, sadly missed out on a really good one yesterday...

Very interesting trivia about the processors!

 

[koraks]

Instead of a processor, you could use a suitable tank + reel (like the Jobo 25xx combination) and a generic roller base. You can sometimes find good deals on old Unicolor or Philips roller bases. You won't have a tempered water bath, but for B&W this isn't necessary anyway. If you're good with electronics and mechanics, you could even construct your own roller base using a motor, some kind of transmission/belt drive and some wheels (DIY store, old skates/skateboard etc.) Overall this is a cheaper approach and it doesn't quite take up as much space as something like a CPE.

 

[four-by-five]

I really like 2509n for developing 4x5, of course I use IR goggles to load. I have Expert drums as well, I just prefer the reels.
Hope to hear a positive report !!

I hope I can figure out how to load it without IR – it's getting expensive already, haha

Getting a newer processor is the way to go. That's what I did, but I never saw the need for the lift.

Seems like it, I'll see if I can find a newer one, maybe as a Christmas present for myself.

Instead of a processor, you could use a suitable tank + reel (like the Jobo 25xx combination) and a generic roller base. You can sometimes find good deals on old Unicolor or Philips roller bases. You won't have a tempered water bath, but for B&W this isn't necessary anyway. If you're good with electronics and mechanics, you could even construct your own roller base using a motor, some kind of transmission/belt drive and some wheels (DIY store, old skates/skateboard etc.) Overall this is a cheaper approach and it doesn't quite take up as much space as something like a CPE.

The tempered water bath is terribly important to me. I'm working in an unheated basement room that very commonly drops to somewhere like 12-15 °C even with the windows closed. I don't like bothering around with manually heating chemistry bottles, tanks and trays. It is so much more comfortable working with the CPA in the winter.

 

[koraks]

The tempered water bath is terribly important to me. I'm working in an unheated basement room that very commonly drops to somewhere like 12-15 °C even with the windows closed. I don't like bothering around with manually heating chemistry bottles, tanks and trays. It is so much more comfortable working with the CPA in the winter.

It's your call, but really all it takes in the circumstances you work in is a simple water cooker or any other source of warm water, and a thermometer. Temperature during the 10 or so minutes of development doesn't drift problematically for B&W work. You can always start 1 degree above your target temperature to allow for small drift.

 

[miha]

The tempered water bath is terribly important to me. I'm working in an unheated basement room that very commonly drops to somewhere like 12-15 °C even with the windows closed. I don't like bothering around with manually heating chemistry bottles, tanks and trays. It is so much more comfortable working with the CPA in the winter.

At such low temperatures, prioritize your well-being over the processing solution's temperature. Consider getting a heater, such as an oil-filled radiator, or an infrared heater. Choose one that best fits your needs and space.

 

[four-by-five]

It's your call, but really all it takes in the circumstances you work in is a simple water cooker or any other source of warm water, and a thermometer. Temperature during the 10 or so minutes of development doesn't drift problematically for B&W work. You can always start 1 degree above your target temperature to allow for small drift.

I know, I know, it's mostly about convenience here for me. Saving myself some work in preparing/cleaning things.

At such low temperatures, prioritize your well-being over the processing solution's temperature. Consider getting a heater, such as an oil-filled radiator, or an infrared heater. Choose one that best fits your needs and space.

A nice coat or jacket typically suffices

 

[koraks]

Saving myself some work in preparing/cleaning things.

Since I'm being pedantic anyway (please forgive me): setting up something like a CPE and then draining, cleaning/storing it after use is a lot more work than heating some water and mixing it to temperature.

I have a perfectly nice CPE2 sitting here. I rarely use it. Why? Turns out that it's a lot quicker and easier most of the time to do it differently. For B&W roll film, it's just a whole lot quicker to mix some water and do manual inversions. For B&W sheet film, I either use trays or my own spin on BTZS tubes - after all, I don't have all that much sheet film to process all at once anyway, so having to do the sheets one by one isn't that much of a problem. It's still a lot less fuss than setting up the CPE2, draining it etc.

For color roll film I mostly use manual processing as well at the moment, usually with a sous vide stick to keep a water bath at the desired temperature. I start by boiling 1.5l of water, add to 5 or so liters of cold tap water and that gets me pretty close to the target temperature. A bath of 7 liters or so is sufficient for doing rolls of color film in a Paterson tank. The CPE2 takes something like 20-25 liters, which takes a lot more time to get up to temperature.

Only when I have to do color sheet film or a batch of color roll film, I bother to haul out the CPE2.

Again, it's your call. Just don't underestimate the convenience of the manual methods that you presently perceive as too cumbersome. You may find, like I did, that they're in fact in many cases more convenient.

 

[four-by-five]

Since I'm being pedantic anyway (please forgive me): setting up something like a CPE and then draining, cleaning/storing it after use is a lot more work than heating some water and mixing it to temperature.

I have a perfectly nice CPE2 sitting here. I rarely use it. Why? Turns out that it's a lot quicker and easier most of the time to do it differently. For B&W roll film, it's just a whole lot quicker to mix some water and do manual inversions. For B&W sheet film, I either use trays or my own spin on BTZS tubes - after all, I don't have all that much sheet film to process all at once anyway, so having to do the sheets one by one isn't that much of a problem. It's still a lot less fuss than setting up the CPE2, draining it etc.

For color roll film I mostly use manual processing as well at the moment, usually with a sous vide stick to keep a water bath at the desired temperature. I start by boiling 1.5l of water, add to 5 or so liters of cold tap water and that gets me pretty close to the target temperature. A bath of 7 liters or so is sufficient for doing rolls of color film in a Paterson tank. The CPE2 takes something like 20-25 liters, which takes a lot more time to get up to temperature.

Only when I have to do color sheet film or a batch of color roll film, I bother to haul out the CPE2.

Again, it's your call. Just don't underestimate the convenience of the manual methods that you presently perceive as too cumbersome. You may find, like I did, that they're in fact in many cases more convenient.

All good, don't be sorry, we're here for discussion after all!

Considering I can leave the water in the processor for a bit before it goes bad, that really is less work to me: load a tank, get the chemistry ready and flip a switch. Afterwards, I only have to clean the beakers and the tank. Again, the water can be left in the processor for a bit. I can go get a cup of coffee while it is agitating precisely to program. I've also found that it reaches target densities a lot more accurately than when I'm agitating by hand, sometimes a lack of concentration on my side introduces some error there. One thing less to worry about!

 

[koraks]

Considering I can leave the water in the processor for a bit before it goes bad

That happens surprisingly quickly. You can let it sit idle for a day, maybe two. More is stretching it; bacteria and algae grow remarkably easily in there, and scale deposits very readily as well.

precisely to program

Only the more expensive processors have automated programs, and with these, you have to face:
* (Very) high cost of new equipment, or, if you buy an old Autolab etc:
* Maintenance/repair nightmares if/when something breaks
* Contamination of chemistry in pumps/drainage hoses etc.
You'll find plenty of evidence of the issues above here on this forum and in many other places.

Keep in mind also that rotary processing is not a guarantee for perfectly even and consistent development. Timing is still in your own hands unless you run a fully automated processor (see above). And surge/flow marks are common on both 120 and sheet film and may/will require some troubleshooting to be fixed.

Don't get me wrong, I'm quite happy with my CPE2 and I'm not looking to get rid of it. But I'm kind of surprised myself as to why I'm barely using it, even though it's readily accessible to me.

 

[four-by-five]

That happens surprisingly quickly. You can let it sit idle for a day, maybe two. More is stretching it; bacteria and algae grow remarkably easily in there, and scale deposits very readily as well.



Only the more expensive processors have automated programs, and with these, you have to face:
* (Very) high cost of new equipment, or, if you buy an old Autolab etc:
* Maintenance/repair nightmares if/when something breaks
* Contamination of chemistry in pumps/drainage hoses etc.
You'll find plenty of evidence of the issues above here on this forum and in many other places.

Keep in mind also that rotary processing is not a guarantee for perfectly even and consistent development. Timing is still in your own hands unless you run a fully automated processor (see above). And surge/flow marks are common on both 120 and sheet film and may/will require some troubleshooting to be fixed.

Don't get me wrong, I'm quite happy with my CPE2 and I'm not looking to get rid of it. But I'm kind of surprised myself as to why I'm barely using it, even though it's readily accessible to me.

Oh, I've left the water in mine for five days now, haha. Heard about people using antiseptics in their processor water, how much could that prolong the "life" (or lack thereof) of the water?

By programming, I mean the programmed rotation. I'm aware that proper programming is not possible with this unit. Getting an ATL would be way beyond my current scope of use.

Of course, the CPA doesn't guarantee anything but I've made very good experiences with it thus far (knock on wood!)

Thanks for your insights, I've still got a lot to learn but that's why I'm here

 

[koraks]

Heard about people using antiseptics in their processor water, how much could that prolong the "life" (or lack thereof) of the water?

It'll help some; I really can't comment. It depends on the stuff you use, how much, and under what conditions. I'd really recommend to drain it after a day or so.

By programming, I mean the programmed rotation.

That's not going to be any better than doing agitations every 30 seconds manually. A simple kitchen timer suffices for this.

I hope you'll be able to find something like a CPE2 or so; they're out there, but kind of expensive. More importantly, I hope that when/if you find it, it'll live up to your expectations.

 

[mshchem]

I never leave water in my Jobo machines. I do have a couple ancient Kodak Rapid Color processors. These things have huge stainless drums filled with water, these are meant to be left full (it quite an ordeal to drain the big one) . I add a very tiny amount of a humidifier treatment to the drum water and the water inside is pure RO water.

My Jobo CPP3 instructions state that processor needs to be emptied and dried for 8 hours after 8 hours of use.

Makes sense, so easy to siphon out.

 

[four-by-five]

Alright, thanks! I just drained my CPA this evening.

The entire situation is giving me second thoughts. The fact that I feel like I know nothing and the increased utility bill and cleaning work (caused by changing the water more often) don't necessarily inspire confidence. On the other hand, I really like the concept of machine processing with its potential benefits and want to keep on going with what I've started.

I'll talk to a few friends that used to run their own Jobo processors years ago about handling and their general thoughts.
Also, I'll finally test 4x5 development in the Colordrum once I get around to it.

 

[koraks]

As stated before, a simple roller base will give you the same constant agitation that a Jobo will give you, but without the utility bill and cleaning duties that come with the water jacket. And for B&W, temperature control doesn't have to involve a water jacket in the first place, not even with your cold working environment. You could either do 'fly-by' temp control where you start out a little warmer and allow temps to drop a little below target by the time development is done. Or alternatively just use a larger volume (almost full tank) so the thermal mass of the developer is greater and it doesn't cool down very quickly. Personally, I'd do neither and just mix 20C developer and call it good - which really it will be.

For sheet film specifically, another good method that I touched upon very briefly is so-called "BTZS tubes" - which are simply plastic tubes of an appropriate size that will hold one roll of film, each. An easily-fitted cap holds the amount of developer needed; you load the sheet into the tube in the dark, then fit the cap and put the closed tube into a tray of water where you allow it to bob around. Personally I don't bother with the tray and just roll the tube on the countertop. You can sometimes buy these BTZS tubes on the second-hand market (I think they're no longer being sold, new), or you can DIY them from pieces of PVC drainage pipe.

In terms of very even, perfect and consistent development of sheet film, it's hard to beat a simple tray.

 

[four-by-five]

To give a bit of an update on the topic:

I have very kindly heard back from the website owner today. As I understand it now, there are essentially two ways of going about this the proper way (and without buying a newer processor):

• Buying a 4323 Ro-Tank (which could hold two 2509n reels)
• Getting 3D printed rollers to replace the standard ones present on the CPA (see Thingiverse) and using the 2520 tank for one 2509n reel

To be honest, I have not yet tested the Colordrum for 4x5 film as I originally intended to do. I haven't had the time to shoot much 4x5 lately and would rather do it the proper way anyway.

As for Jobo, I have not heard back from them.

 

[four-by-five]

Another update, possibly not the last:

I've since had the opportunity to get the above mentioned 3D print done by a friend. After some filing around the roller mounts, it fits really well. The only problem I've been having is that my tank seems to be a little short. The CPA's default roller mounts appear to be in the way in order for it to sit where it has to. I'll see what can be done about that.

Still haven't heard back from Jobo, at this point I suppose I won't ever. Maybe I should ask them again?!