Jobo c-41 kit, 1 week shelf life for mixed developer? Really??

[Helinophoto]

Does anyone have any experience with this kit? https://www.macodirect.de/en/chemis...0-jobo-c-41-color-negative-developer-kit-2.5l

Apparently, my eyes (or brain) deceived me, and I thought the finished mixed developer solution had a 12 week life-span, similar to the Tetenal kit.
So, when I got this, and mixed it, I simply made up 2.5 liters of the dev-solution, so that I can have a period of shooting film-only and developing as I go for a good while (autumn is coming with nice colors, among other things).

However, when I had done that, and started to process 4 of the 9 rolls that I had waiting, reading the pamphlet to see the development times again, I notice that the manual actually say that the working solution will only live for 1 week after mixing!

My mistake indeed!

Really? One week?

I sure as heck cannot fill the quota of 40 rolls through this kit in the next 6 days, that's for sure.

Any experiences about the actual shelf life here?
Can I use a different color developer somehow?

The page i normally use when ordering film and chemicals, lists a few things (some things that will never come back, like tetenal), but I have no idea what to get here, what is a "starter" ??
(its in Norwegian, but the products should be familiar)

Forside

Spesialbutikk innen foto, med et stort utvalg av blekk og papir, samt analogt materiell, lysutstyr og storformat foto-printere.

shop.fotoimport.no

I just need a color-developer, apparently.....because the Jobo one, according to themselves, dies in 6 days from now.
I thought it was possible to get this separately?

I am not that experienced with color dev outside the typical Tetenal-kit and now the Jobo one, so I am not familiar with replenishers and god knows what.

Any good suggestions? (I'd rather avoid the Cinestill package, as I see that many people experience various issues with that one, or they may do it wrong).

- The 4 rolls I developed in the Jobo-kit came out perfectly fine yesterday, planning to plow through the remaining 5 in the next couple of days, possibly shoot a couple more rolls this weekend, weather permitting. Keeping the temperature is pretty easy, as I just keep all chemicals in the kitchen sink at 38 degrees, presoak the film and process. The remaining bleach and fix are less temperature critical, so the 2 degree drop in total, between dev and the final wash after fixing isn't something I worry much about, as long as the developer-temp is spot on for 3 minutes.

 

[koraks]

Any experiences about the actual shelf life here?

No, but going by the MSDS, there's hydroxylamine sulfate in the developer, which is the normal preservative in a C41 developer. As such, I would expect that if you store the developer in absence of air, e.g. in entirely full glass bottles with a tight-fitting cap, the lifetime of the developer will be far longer than one week. It's hard to give a good guess, but I wouldn't be surprised if the real service life is measured in months rather than weeks.

Can I use a different color developer somehow?

Yes. If you're in the market for a kit that makes 2.5 working solution, I would consider switching to the smallest FUJIFILM minilab quantities, which are more attractive on a price/liter basis. Here's the developer I use: https://fotofilmfabriek.nl/product/fujifilm-fuji-hunt-environeg-developer-replenisher-1x-10-liter/ I know the page is in Dutch but this shop is likely willing to ship within the EU. This seller is willing to part out boxes; Fuji packaging for this developer is two kits to make 10 liters per box, but the contents are simply two identical kits that can be used separately from each other. Note that you'll need a starter for this as well; contact any supplier (for instance the one I linked to) if they're willing to sell you a single bottle of FUJIFILM EnviroNeg starter. (not EnviroPrint starter!!)

Sorry about the plug, but I've been using the Fuji minilab chemistry for years and unless it becomes unavailable, I'm never going back to the amateur-oriented kits. I could only wish the same experience on others. The developer, mixed to working strength, I store in full glass bottles and it easily lasts over a year that way. I use it one shot because it's cheap as chips, which also saves some headaches about possible variations due to reuse etc. I've always got the real thing, in perfect condition, for every roll of film.

 

[Sergey Ko]

I used FUJI C-41 5L diluted only by 1\5 (for 1 liter) The rest concentrate held in fridge. The diluted 1 liter I used up to 6 weeks in JOBO ATL-1500, with the same program & temperature. But I held it in collapsible black bottles.
FUJI C-41 kit is the same 3-bath classical chemistry as JOBO C-41 kit is.
So I think you'll have no problems.
My problem is that the last 1/5 is already too dark (developer concentrate) because I opened it more the 1,5 year ago.
But I'll try it with some test film. I know from my experience, that dark solution do not mean failure in 90%

 

[thornhill]

Freeze the working solution of your C-41 developer. It'll keep for years. It's worked for me and was also approved by "Photo Engineer" in a thread "C-41 chemicals preservation" dated Nov 11/2007. Read post #13.

 

[Steven Lee]

Freeze the working solution of your C-41 developer. It'll keep for years. It's worked for me and was also approved by "Photo Engineer" in a thread "C-41 chemicals preservation" dated Nov 11/2007.

He specifically said NOT to freeze in that thread.

 

[thornhill]

He specifically said NOT to freeze in that thread.

How far down the thread did you read?

 

[Steven Lee]

Oops, I see... I stand corrected.

 

[koraks]

My problem is that the last 1/5 is already too dark (developer concentrate) because I opened it more the 1,5 year ago.

Instead of storing the concentrate, mix the entire volume to working strenght and store in glass bottles. Takes up more space, but lasts longer. It even lasts far longer than unopened, factory sealed concentrates this way.

Never tried freezing but don't see why it wouldn't work for working strength developer. We don't have sufficient excess freezer space for this.

 

[Sirius Glass]

I use my 1 liter kit in 1 to 3 days for all my film. I never keep it longer.

 

[brbo]

Instead of storing the concentrate, mix the entire volume to working strenght and store in glass bottles. Takes up more space, but lasts longer. It even lasts far longer than unopened, factory sealed concentrates this way.

Do we have any explanation why that is so? FujiHunt not using inert gas in concentrate containers, plastics that are worse than glass, water adding better keeping properties, mixed A, B and C (to basically make "monopart" concentrate) keeps better than part C (or was it B that oxidates fastest) by itself, ...?

 

[lamerko]

They're probably overinsured - maybe they don't care about customer complaints. However, this is a home kit - many users do not follow good practices. As the ingredients are announced, I see the main ingredients including DTPA.Na5 (A), Sodium Sulfite (A), HAS (B) and Sodium Bisulfite (C). Sulfite would wash out quickly, but there is also bisulfite (and maybe metabisulfite). In other words, this composition is no different from other whales that have a much longer stated life…

 

[koraks]

FujiHunt not using inert gas in concentrate containers, plastics that are worse than glass, water adding better keeping properties, mixed A, B and C (to basically make "monopart" concentrate) keeps better than part C (or was it B that oxidates fastest) by itself, ...?

A combination; mostly glass being less permeable than HDPE and the HAS preservative being part of the working strength mix.

They're probably overinsured - maybe they don't care about customer complaints. However, this is a home kit - many users do not follow good practices

The chemistry I use is not intended for home use, but I doubt their packaging is all that much different between the smallest lab kits and the larger home kits. I'm also pretty sure they distribute these with the expectation that the unused kits won't sit around for months on a shelf. Keep in mind that the color chemistry and paper parts of Fuji really aren't organized to follow the needs of home users. They focus on volume, which means B2B.

 

[brbo]

A combination; mostly glass being less permeable than HDPE and the HAS preservative being part of the working strength mix.

One would think that they would forgo separate packaging of A, B and C concentrates if they found no advantage let alone if it was worse than distributing it as monopart?

Maybe it's because separate packaging enables finer tweaking of working solution's parameters in lab environments (replenished systems) as the film development is absolutely critical. On the other hand, RA-4 chemistry from Fuji now comes in monopart concentrates as the system can easily be finely calibrated/tweaked in the digital part of the output chain. I don't know, this still doesn't explain why a lot of C-41/E-6 home kits also come with separate concentrates...

I used to store concentrates in separate glass bottles sealed with Protectan and mix 1L of working solution at a time. Never had a problem even if it took me two years to finish the kit. Now I mix everything to get 5L of working solution and store it in PET bottles after a number of people said that this works just as well for them and it's indeed much easier to manage.

 

[koraks]

One would think that they would forgo separate packaging of A, B and C concentrates if they found no advantage let alone if it was worse than distributing it as monopart?

The logistics are a whole lot cheaper this way.

because separate packaging enables finer tweaking of working solution's parameters in lab environments (replenished systems)

I'm not so optimistic about the degree of tweaking that occurs in your average lab. For the most part they'll just mix to the instructions and call it a day. Which, as far as I can tell, is perfectly sensible. To the extent that tweaking is called for in the documentation, it's pretty much limited to pH adjustment, which doesn't involve different mixing ratios of the concentrates.

On the other hand, RA-4 chemistry from Fuji now comes in monopart concentrates

CPRA is a two-part concentrate. I doubt this would be because of supposed tweaking of chemistry; it's probably just due to chemical compatibility and preventing precipitation etc. The MP-series such as MP90 used to be a monopart. I have the impression that the MP series is discontinued and has made place for a single product; CPRA. Not 100% sure about that however. Fuji did recommend CPRA for the kind of use that would be common Photrio. They didn't elaborate.

 

[brbo]

The logistics are a whole lot cheaper this way.

Because three parts can't simply be mixed together (without a considerable amount of water)?

 

[koraks]

Because three parts can't simply be mixed together (without a considerable amount of water)?

I once exchanged messages with PE on making concentrates. He said some things about the different ingredients of a C41 developer not being compatible in these concentrations. I'd have to dig, but I recall the HAS was involved. Not sure which the others were.

Adding water would of course increase volume and mass, and thereby make the whole thing logistically expensive and cumbersome to deal with.

I figure that Fuji have thought this through fairly well.

 

[brbo]

I figure that Fuji have thought this through fairly well.

I'm pretty sure they did.

I'm just trying to understand the reason behind it. With my (lack of) knowledge of chemistry I could see myself coming up with a bright idea to optimise the storage of the developer by making a "mono" concentrate by simply mixing A, B and C parts together...

 

[koraks]

Well, you could try...that's sort of the angle I was taking when I talked to PE about it; in the end, I came to the conclusion that 3 concentrates made sense. I'd have to look up the conversation; it's been a while (obviously!)

 

[MattKing]

It could be as simple as the bottles that work for the individual components are cheaper and more effective and easier to ship with their components in them than the bottle that would be needed to store and ship a mixture.

 

[Helinophoto]

Wow, thank you all for the input surrounding this, always so much valuable information on here.

Ok, I will cork the bottle after topping it off to overflow and chuck it into the freezer (got to squeeze the bottle a little, as liquids tends to expand once frozen)
Crossing fingers that it will work out well, never thought about freezing the thing actually. ^^

 

[thornhill]

Wow, thank you all for the input surrounding this, always so much valuable information on here.

Ok, I will cork the bottle after topping it off to overflow and chuck it into the freezer (got to squeeze the bottle a little, as liquids tends to expand once frozen)
Crossing fingers that it will work out well, never thought about freezing the thing actually. ^^

You should be fine. I've used four year old C-41 dev solution and it worked well. Once it's in the frozen state there's no oxidation until you start thawing it out, which I do in a hot water bath. I've always allowed 10% volume or more for ice expansion, though it's obvious there's no need to explain the properties of ice to a Norwegian

 

[sillo]

I've had great success with EVOH wine bladders. Mix up the entire 5 liter batch of replenisher and store in astra pouch wine bladders. I even mix straight into the bladder so one less thing I have to clean. So far I've had a batch stored for 6 months with no discernable degradation on my control strips. Probably could've gone longer, but I used up the batch. I don't shoot much b&w so I've had a 5 liter batch of xtol mixed since January 2022 that's still kicking store in the same manner. It's a really good solution if you're doing one shot development, but also good for mixing up bigger batches and then making your way through it 1 liter of working solution at a time.

The big advantage is you're never reintroducing air into the system like you would every time you open and close a bottle and the nozzles are precise enough to dispense the exact amount you need.

 

[koraks]

I've had great success with EVOH wine bladders.

Good to know; I just got a couple for myself to play with. Let's see how it goes!

 

[MattKing]

I truly believe that there must be a market for re-usable plastic boxes for the bladders, but I can't find anything that is anywhere close to reasonable prices.

 

[koraks]

The cardboard ones I got seem pretty sturdy. As long as they're kept dry, they should last a while.