Jobo black & white film development

[Sirius Glass]

I developed several sheets of Ilford HP5+ 4x5 film sheets. I looked up the XTOL full strength development time at Ilford and it was 8 minutes. I corrected for the temperature and then reduced the time by 15% per Jobo instructions and per Ilford instructions => time 0.85. The film came out as very thin, under developed. I used the same exposure meter the same way I have done with this film in the past and the negative should have been much denser.

Should I have added one minute to the development time as Kodak does for Tri-X and others?

Should I use 0.90, 0.95, or 1.00 instead of 0.85?

Add one minute and use 0.90, 0.95, or 1.00?

Steve :confused:

 

[eclarke]

Steve, what temperature?

 

[Sirius Glass]

I used 72º at 5:30, 68º at 6:48, and 65º at 8:00 with the 3010 Expert Drum.

Steve

 

[MaximusM3]

I used 72º at 5:30, 68º at 6:48, and 65º at 8:00 with the 3010 Expert Drum.

Steve

Steve,

It sounds like you just under-developed, time wise.
I would use 8:30 @ 68 degrees, 7:05 @ 72 degrees and 9:40 @ 65 degrees...assuming you shot at box speed?

Max

 

[Sirius Glass]

Yes it was shot at ISO 400, box speed.

 

[fschifano]

How much developer did you use? The recommended minimum for XTOL is 100 ml. stock / 80 sq. in. of film. Four 4x5 sheets is 80 square inches, so you'd have needed at least 100 ml. There's some scuttlebutt around saying that HP5+ is developer hungry, so maybe you'd have needed a bit more than that. Maybe there was a temperature drop in the tank? A few things could have gone wrong.

 

[Sirius Glass]

I used 750ml so that would not be a problem. Overkill.

Steve

 

[Andrew K]

How old was the developer? And did you use a pre-wash?

 

[eclarke]

The Xtol depends on the ph of your water so comaring times can be difficult. When I was using Xtol, I rate my HP5 at 320 and my dev time was 6'15" @68 deg. mixed with municipal water filtered through a 4 filter meniscus setup...EC

 

[Jim Chinn]

I use a JOBO and found that 15% percent reduction in time recommended by JOBO is to much for "my" film and developer combos with my exposure methods. To optimize a JOBO you need to forget that number and test specific film/developer combinations and get specific times. Then you can adjust for + or- development like you would with any other development method. I would start with the film mfgs times and adjust from there.
With regards to XTOL, I found that no reduction in development is best with any film I have used.

 

[Sirius Glass]

How old was the developer? And did you use a pre-wash?

Not applicable factors. This is replenished developer that I have a great deal of experience with.

I do not pre-wash for XTOL for tank development.

Both Kodak and Jobo spacifically advise against pre-wash with XTOL.

Steve

 

[Sirius Glass]

The Xtol depends on the ph of your water so comaring times can be difficult. When I was using Xtol, I rate my HP5 at 320 and my dev time was 6'15" @68 deg. mixed with municipal water filtered through a 4 filter meniscus setup...EC

The last time I checked the pH of my water does not change on a daily basis. I have been using local water and box speed with XTOL for years with good and consistant results. The only change in the OP is using a Jobo processor and reducing the development time by 15%.

 

[Sirius Glass]

I use a JOBO and found that 15% percent reduction in time recommended by JOBO is to much for "my" film and developer combos with my exposure methods. To optimize a JOBO you need to forget that number and test specific film/developer combinations and get specific times. Then you can adjust for + or- development like you would with any other development method. I would start with the film mfgs times and adjust from there.
With regards to XTOL, I found that no reduction in development is best with any film I have used.

This is exactly the experience data that I am looking for. Any others?

Steve

 

[oldfaithful58]

I use EI 250, TTL metering in Bronica ETRSi.
Processing in CPE2: 5 mins pre wash @21c, XTOL 1:1 (150ml:150ml)-> 9 mins @ 21c
Zone, Density (after subtraction of base & fog) -> 1, 0.11; 2, 0.24; 3, 0.40; 4, 0.56; 5, 0.74; 6, 0.9; 7, 1.08; 8, 1.26
XTOL was mixed 2 days before use and diluted with local tap water.
To date (15 litres so far) I have not suffered any problem in consistency from using local tap water, or any of the fabled sudden death
Hope this helps
Dave

 

[ic-racer]

This is exactly the experience data that I am looking for. Any others?

Steve

Just develop for a time that gives you the contrast you need. Otherwise there are too many factors to account for if you want to duplicate published values.

 

[Ronald Moravec]

How do you know the Xtol is good? Ans, no way to tell.

Increase the time in developer 5% for each half grade above #2 it takes to make it look good. #4 paper would be 20%.

Never run calibraton tests in old developer. NEVER.

One can never pull time off a table and expect it to work. The only times that work for me are Ilfords for their time and their developer & Kodak for their film and developer. That is for a diffusion enlarger, take off 10% for a condenser.

 

[Sirius Glass]

How do you know the Xtol is good? Ans, no way to tell.

Increase the time in developer 5% for each half grade above #2 it takes to make it look good. #4 paper would be 20%.

Never run calibraton tests in old developer. NEVER.

One can never pull time off a table and expect it to work. The only times that work for me are Ilfords for their time and their developer & Kodak for their film and developer. That is for a diffusion enlarger, take off 10% for a condenser.

I used Ilfords time for XTOL and their recommendation to shorten it by 15%. There was no factor for seasoned [replenished]. The results were underdeveloped. That is the purpose of the OP.

So is the problem reducing by 15% or not accounting for replenishment which Kodak only does for rotary 4x5 or both??

Steve

 

[Anon Ymous]

There's a practical and totally unscientific method to check developer activity...

I habitually keep the leaders of developed 135 film; I have to admit I've got a stash. So, if I want to check if the developer is ok (perhaps ok-ish), I can process the leader of the film I'm about to develop and compare the density of the two leaders against the same light source. Of course, you need to know how the point of reference has been developed and do exactly the same.

As I said, it's not a scientific method, but it will reveal significant drop in activity.

 

[fschifano]

...The only change in the OP is using a Jobo processor and reducing the development time by 15%.

Well then there you have it. It's pretty safe to assume that the developer is good if you've been using it and it's worked well in the past. So that leaves only two possible causes. Cutting back development time to compensate for continuous agitation is a smart thing to do most of the time, but 15% might be a bit excessive for this particular combination. Possible? Yes. Likely to make a drastic difference? Probably not. Which leaves us with one last variable to deal with and that's temperature. Maybe the tank was cold before you started and caused the temperature of the developer to drop suddenly upon introduction into the tank. Maybe the constant agitation caused the developer to cool down more rapidly that what's normally expected with an inversion tank. One thing is for sure, you can't put a Jobo tank in a tempering bath while it's running in the processor. Does the processor have a way to temper the tank?

 

[Sirius Glass]

The tank was tempered for ten minutes each time before I started. The Original XTOL was mixed two weeks before and appropriately replenished. That leads me to believe that adding one minute to the 68º time then compensating for the temperature and then the time shorted by something less than 15% is the answer. When I talked to Penn Camera and showed them the negative from tray development and the Jobo, they felt that I should use the method in the second sentence and not reduce the rotary processing time at all. So I am looking for the experiences of others.

Steve

 

[Jim Chinn]

I would just add that testing to get your developing times is a PITA, but it is worth it. Nothing produces consistency of results like a JOBO.

 

[wildbill]

I alway use the standard times for starters. No reduction time for jobo. I don't know why but it works.

 

[Neal]

Dear Steve,

I use the Xtol roll film numbers (diluted 1+1) for HP5+ 4x5 sheet film. No problems yet.

Neal Wydra

 

[Sirius Glass]

Kodak Publication J-109 gives replenished Xtol in rotary drums development times of 65°-9 1/2 minutes, 68°- 7 3/4 minutes, 70°- 6 1/2 minutes, and 75°- 5 minutes. They do not list times for 72°. These are longer times than yours and may help. I have used them to great results.

Thanx!

 

[Sirius Glass]

I alway use the standard times for starters. No reduction time for jobo. I don't know why but it works.

Thanx

That seems to be a consensus.

Steve