JCH Streetpan 400 H+D Curve with Replenished XTOL for 17:30 at 24C in a JOBO

[Adrian Bacon]

For reference, and if anybody wants to discuss.

I've made these exposures as carefully as I could and eliminated as many variables as I realistically could. While it is not scientific, and certainly not up to ISO or probably manufacturer standards, it is as accurate as I can make it with what I have available to me, and certainly accurate enough that I thought it would be share-worthy.

Each of the curves is from film base plus fog up to a correctly exposed 18 percent grey card in full stop increments using a studio strobe, and transmission rated lens set to infinity focus. The strobe was incident metered to 1/10 stop and varies less than +- 0.1 stops shot to shot. The intensity of the light to the film plane was controlled with the lens aperture, so once the strobe power was set, it did not change for the duration of the exposures. The 18 percent grey card filled the frame so there shouldn't be any flare.

The densities were measured with an X-Rite Densitometer.

Since the characteristic curve is so S-Shaped, I've centered the metered middle gray at the ISO 0.9 Density point. At EI 200, you have barely 4 stops from middle grey to film base plus fog, and just a hair over 4 stops over middle grey until it pretty much stops getting more dense in any meaningful way. If you wanted to center your middle grey in the middle of the s-curve, you'd be better off at EI 160-125.

A few observations: this is not a high dynamic range film. You're looking at barely more than paper DR at 8-9 stops. That might be a good candidate for reversal processing as the film base is very clear relative to other films.

 

[Randy Stewart]

I have not done the detailed analysis you have, but an examination of most of the images taken with this film rated at 400 show little to no shadow detail. Having evaluated a number of films using the zone system procedures, I reached the same conclusion as to its true speed. I've assumed that the 400 rating assigned to the film by its distributor is puffing to get it selling in the hot area of the market. I suspect that there are 20 rolls of 400 speed film sold for every one of lesser speed.

 

[Lachlan Young]

If it's a repurposed aerial film, it may well have an Effective Aerial Film Speed (EAFS) of 400, but your film speed at sea level is going to be at least a stop less or more. The steep curve only adds to the hypothesis that it's Aviphot 400S or something very close to it.

 

[Adrian Bacon]

If it's a repurposed aerial film, it may well have an Effective Aerial Film Speed (EAFS) of 400, but your film speed at sea level is going to be at least a stop less or more. The steep curve only adds to the hypothesis that it's Aviphot 400S or something very close to it.

I suspect that the 400 rating is EAFS. By ISO standards that other films (like TMAX 400) are measured, this is nowhere near 400 speed film, at least not in 5500K daylight. From what I've read, it does have extended red sensitivity and JCH has stated that it's an old traffic surveillance emulsion that they've contracted to have coated for them. I strongly suspect that Harman is contract coating it for them as if you look at the inside lip of the canister where the barcode DX coding goes, on a significant number of canisters, there's a little overlap where the printing from other Ilford/Harman canisters show up. I've seen Delta 3200, HP5+, and the blue FP4+ colors/speed markings there. See the two attached images for the Delta 3200 marks on some of the recent JCH canisters that came through my lab. If that's not the purple Delta 3200 color and speed markings, I don't know what is.

 

[Anon Ymous]

@Adrian Bacon Harman may have done the conversion to 135, the film itself is probably made by Agfa (Belgium).

 

[Adrian Bacon]

@Adrian Bacon Harman may have done the conversion to 135, the film itself is probably made by Agfa (Belgium).

That's totally possible. At a minimum the canisters are being printed on the same machinery as Ilford's are. I doubt it's old stock that they're pulling out of some deep freeze and converting as the halation layer has recently changed. It used to be a grey sediment that came out in the developer that I used to have to filter out, now it doesn't do that any more and instead stains the developer yellow. I suspect that JCH made that change because people didn't like that, it might have also been a more expensive halation and the one that stains yellow is less expensive.

 

[Anon Ymous]

That's totally possible. At a minimum the canisters are being printed on the same machinery as Ilford's are. I doubt it's old stock that they're pulling out of some deep freeze and converting as the halation layer has recently changed. It used to be a grey sediment that came out in the developer that I used to have to filter out, now it doesn't do that any more and instead stains the developer yellow. I suspect that JCH made that change because people didn't like that, it might have also been a more expensive halation and the one that stains yellow is less expensive.

Does this film have a perfectly clear base?

 

[Adrian Bacon]

Does this film have a perfectly clear base?

It’s clearer than most, but I wouldn’t say it’s perfectly clear. You can still see the film base plus fog.

 

[Team ADOX]

I suspect that the 400 rating is EAFS. By ISO standards that other films (like TMAX 400) are measured, this is nowhere near 400 speed film, at least not in 5500K daylight.

The real effective / true ISO sensitivity of this film is in the ISO 50/18° - 100/21° range, dependent on the used developer. Your measurements at EI 200 with XTOL also show that quite clearly. It is typical for the (former) Agfa aerial / surveillance films, which this film is.

From what I've read, it does have extended red sensitivity and JCH has stated that it's an old traffic surveillance emulsion that they've contracted to have coated for them. I strongly suspect that Harman is contract coating it for them as .....

There has never been a contract coating of this film. It has always been already existing film stock.
Agfa is not doing any contract coating of their aerial/surveillance films at all. They also don't give their emulsion formulas to any others. And Harman cannot do any coating of Agfa films, it doesn't work technically: You cannot just switch an emulsion from one coater to another one at a different factory. It does'nt work at all. The emulsion has to be changed and adopted.
When it was introduced in spring 2016, this film was just expired left-over stock of Agfa Aviphot Pan 400 / ASP 400s. A film which was last coated by Agfa in 2008 and then discontinued.

if you look at the inside lip of the canister where the barcode DX coding goes, on a significant number of canisters, there's a little overlap where the printing from other Ilford/Harman canisters show up. I've seen Delta 3200, HP5+, and the blue FP4+ colors/speed markings there. See the two attached images for the Delta 3200 marks on some of the recent JCH canisters that came through my lab. If that's not the purple Delta 3200 color and speed markings, I don't know what is.

Harman has been doing the converting of this already existing film stock.

ADOX - Innovation In Analog Photography.

 

[Team ADOX]

......as the halation layer has recently changed. It used to be a grey sediment that came out in the developer that I used to have to filter out, now it doesn't do that any more and instead stains the developer yellow.

The most likely explanation for that is that the stock of former ASP 400S / Aviphot Pan 400 left-over stock is depleted. And now Aviphot Pan 200 is repackaged, which has almost identical characteristics.
Please have also a look at this thread: https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/choices-for-ir-film.174757/

ADOX - Innovation In Analog Photography.

 

[Adrian Bacon]

The most likely explanation for that is that the stock of former ASP 400S / Aviphot Pan 400 left-over stock is depleted. And now Aviphot Pan 200 is repackaged, which has almost identical characteristics.
Please have also a look at this thread: https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/choices-for-ir-film.174757/

ADOX - Innovation In Analog Photography.

so you’re saying that JCH will at some point die and go away because they will eventually convert through all the master rolls that are no longer being manufactured?

 

[Team ADOX]

so you’re saying that JCH will at some point die and go away because they will eventually convert through all the master rolls that are no longer being manufactured?

Please have a look here:
https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/choices-for-ir-film.174757/
and here
https://www.agfa.com/specialty-products/solutions/aerial-photography/aviphot/
There you will find the current status of real Agfa aerial film production. Including the options those people have who are using Agfa aerial films for repackaging under new names.
Someone who has used so far expired, left-over stock of former Aviphot Pan 400 / ASP 400s, but is now running out of this material / has depleted film stock, principally has two options:
1. Discontinue his repackaged film.
2. Using Aviphot Pan 200 instead (which can still be bought at Agfa).

ADOX - Innovation In Analog Photography.

 

[Adrian Bacon]

Please have a look here:
https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/choices-for-ir-film.174757/
and here
https://www.agfa.com/specialty-products/solutions/aerial-photography/aviphot/
There you will find the current status of real Agfa aerial film production. Including the options those people have who are using Agfa aerial films for repackaging under new names.
Someone who has used so far expired, left-over stock of former Aviphot Pan 400 / ASP 400s, but is now running out of this material / has depleted film stock, principally has two options:
1. Discontinue his repackaged film.
2. Using Aviphot Pan 200 instead (which can still be bought at Agfa).

ADOX - Innovation In Analog Photography.

thank you.

 

[grain elevator]

Does anyone know hoiw this film, with such a strong S-curve, would react to increased developing time? Does the maximum density increase at all of does only the middle of the curve go up?

 

[Adrian Bacon]

Does anyone know hoiw this film, with such a strong S-curve, would react to increased developing time? Does the maximum density increase at all of does only the middle of the curve go up?

I would think the maximum density would keep going up to a point, but don’t know where the upper limit is. I did a run at 12:30 and 15:00 and both of those had less density. I settled on 17:30 just so the total density range was right around 2.0-2.1. For scanning and prints, it doesn’t make much sense to go much beyond that unless you have a really good reason to.

 

[grain elevator]

I just think it would be an interesting option, a film that allows very high contrast in the midtones but rolls the highlights off gently, keeping them printable. It already is that to some degree, I was wondering whether one could get even more of that out of it, but if the highlights continue to rise in density with development, it won't be possible the increase midtone contrast more and print straight, keeping the highlights. Or not without giving away the increased midtone contrast again by moving to softer gradation.

 

[Adrian Bacon]

I just think it would be an interesting option, a film that allows very high contrast in the midtones but rolls the highlights off gently, keeping them printable. It already is that to some degree, I was wondering whether one could get even more of that out of it, but if the highlights continue to rise in density with development, it won't be possible the increase midtone contrast more and print straight, keeping the highlights. Or not without giving away the increased midtone contrast again by moving to softer gradation.

Even at 17:30, you're already way over gamma 1.0 through the mid-tones. On a paper print that is going to be one extremely punchy print. I don't remember off the top of my head what grade you'd have to print at with a diffusion enlarger to fit a negative density range of 2.1 on something like Ilford MGRC, but either way, just expose to put the middle grey where you want it. Your range is EI 100 to EI 200 to put it roughly in the middle of the s-curve.

 

[Lachlan Young]

I don't remember off the top of my head what grade you'd have to print at with a diffusion enlarger to fit a negative density range of 2.1 on something like Ilford MGRC

Nominally G2, give or take for flare etc.

 

[grain elevator]

I am tempted to try it. I sure won't buy it from JCH, but apparently it is the same as Rollei Retro 400S and maybe also the same as Rollei Superpan 200 (?).
Adrian, can you say anything about the grain appearance?

 

[BradS]

I am tempted to try it. I sure won't buy it from JCH, but apparently it is the same as Rollei Retro 400S and maybe also the same as Rollei Superpan 200 (?).
Adrian, can you say anything about the grain appearance?

There are many examples on flickr. I just searched for "streetpan 400".

 

[grain elevator]

Can't judge grain from flickr. At all. Even the higher resolution stuff is too small to really see the grain, and thus affected by grain aliasing and usually also sharpening artifacts.

 

[BradS]

Can't judge grain from flickr. At all. Even the higher resolution stuff is too small to really see the grain, and thus affected by grain aliasing and usually also sharpening artifacts.

Yeah, just looking through twenty photos or so, it the grain varies dramatically. Not sure how you get smooth non-grainy scans from a grainy negative though...and there are a few scans tohat do look fairly fine grained.

 

[Adrian Bacon]

Nominally G2, give or take for flare etc.

Ah... Yes... I normally do split grade printing instead of straight grades. It's just easier to expose in the highlights with G0 or 00, then punch the blacks in to taste with G5.

 

[Adrian Bacon]

I am tempted to try it. I sure won't buy it from JCH, but apparently it is the same as Rollei Retro 400S and maybe also the same as Rollei Superpan 200 (?).
Adrian, can you say anything about the grain appearance?

I wouldn't call it exciting. It's relatively fine grained and resolves good detail assuming you give it enough exposure. There isn't really anything about it that I would complain about, but at the same time there isn't anything particularly about it that stands out.

 

[Film-Niko]

I have tested this film quite intensively when it was introduced in 2016. My tests of the chararcteristic curve and my comparisons to my former Agfa Aviphot Pan 400 tests showed me immediately that this "new" film wasn't new at all, but just former Aviphot rests.

The extremely strong and problematic S-shape curve you have got is absolutely typical for this film type. Very difficult to handle.

It’s clearer than most, but I wouldn’t say it’s perfectly clear. You can still see the film base plus fog.

It isn't perfectly clear because it is very old, long expired film, which has meanwhile a quite high base fog (and reduced real speed due to its age). Being at least 12 years old former Agfa ASP 400s = Aviphot Pan 400. A friend of mine worked in aerial photography professionally at that time: In 2008 Agfa informed their aerial customers that this film was coated that year the last time, and that the film is discontinued.
Bellamy Hunt (JCH) has unfortunately lots of criminal energy. He is cheating his customers for years.
Instead of delivering fresh film - as claimed by him - he has just taken some old, expired leftover film stock and sells it totally overpriced.
And selling this film as ISO 400/27° is another cheating. As others have correctly described here, this films has a real speed only in the 40 to 100 range, dependant on the devlopers in use.

When this film was introduced lots of very experienced photographers tested it. And realized that it was just repackaged old Aviphot Pan 400 / ASP 400s.
They published their results and were promptly attacked by Bellamy Hunt and his partner Vishal Soniji from camerafilmphoto. Both continued telling their stupid marketing lies.
In 2017 Mr Hunt published an article that he has for the first time in his life developed a BW film at home by himself. And that he is a complete rookie in processing films.
And the same guy has a year before bashed very experienced photographers with decades of experience in film processing - including evaluating films with densitometers testing the characteristic curves and real speeds. He has bashed them because they have told the truth about his film repackaging and cheating.
This demonstrates very clearly what an as.........le this guy is.
Lying at his customers and ripping them off is his business.