Japan Camera Hunter designing NEW premium film camera

Pioneer · Oct 3, 2017

Theo Sulphate said:
If Bellamy is serious, I would like to see more substance.

It was encouraging when he identified the compact cameras of the 80's and 90's whose electronics and other complex mechanisms failed and then vowed for less electronics and more simplicity. But in a different interview he talks about the camera connecting to a phone app and allowing remote control like the Impossible I-1. A total contradiction.

I welcome any new camera or film, but I want for it to be good enough to survive.

I can certainly agree with this. I would definitely like more information on what he has learned since he started pursuing this line of thought.

It would be interesting to know if he has approached Mr. Kobayashi at Cosina to see what is possible. Obviously Cosina has some experience in this area having done some of this type of production for themselves and for others.

EDIT - I do feel that the survive ability of any new/remanufactured film stock or camera has more to do with profitability then it does with how good it is. Quality is important but if you cannot make money then nothing will last for very long. I think that Cosina's Bessa line of rangefinders is a terrific example here. They were actually quite good but they were certainly not perfect. They certainly were not Leica replicas, but they were of high enough quality that people were willing to pay for them.

blockend · Oct 3, 2017

As I understand it there are a small number of film producers globally as of 2017. Anything we buy comes from one of those companies. There are two ways an independent can supply film, one is to approach a manufacturer and offer to take a substantial volume of repeat stock at a price that makes it worthwhile to the manufacturer and viable for the distributor. This was the case with Agfa's (undeclared) branding of Fuji 200 as sold through UK's Poundshop chain and elsewhere, and B&H's re-boxing of Tri-X. The other is to identify a "sleeping" or non-domestic film type, and order enough to supply it, rebranded, in a domestic market. This seems to be Bellamy's model, the Lomography brand, Cinestil and others.

It's legitimate for a supplier to keep his film source anonymous if the deal is non-exclusive, to discourage copy cat operations which might affect his profits. I think it's less ethical to infer or openly suggest that the brand is a new type of film, whoever is doing the marketing. There are very few entirely new film technologies, Portra was probably one of the last, and it's unhelpful to film manufacturing as a whole to suggest there's an ongoing research and development programme.

Pioneer · Oct 3, 2017

blockend said:
As I understand it there are a small number of film producers globally as of 2017. Anything we buy comes from one of those companies. There are two ways an independent can supply film, one is to approach a manufacturer and offer to take a substantial volume of repeat stock at a price that makes it worthwhile to the manufacturer and viable for the distributor. This was the case with Agfa's (undeclared) branding of Fuji 200 as sold through UK's Poundshop chain and elsewhere, and B&H's re-boxing of Tri-X. The other is to identify a "sleeping" or non-domestic film type, and order enough to supply it, rebranded, in a domestic market. This seems to be Bellamy's model, the Lomography brand, Cinestil and others.

It's legitimate for a supplier to keep his film source anonymous if the deal is non-exclusive, to discourage copy cat operations which might affect his profits. I think it's less ethical to infer or openly suggest that the brand is a new type of film, whoever is doing the marketing. There are very few entirely new film technologies, Portra was probably one of the last, and it's unhelpful to film manufacturing as a whole to suggest there's an ongoing research and development programme.

But reviving an old, discontinued film stock is perfectly fine. And that is exactly what Bellamy did, and that is exactly what he said he did. I never once read anything where he claimed otherwise, except for in these forums. At no time did he claim to have designed a brand new type of film. Not even Ferrania has claimed to be developing a new film, but they are reviving old types of film that were previously produced and then went out of production.

I think some people got upset when he wouldn't specify exactly which film stock he was reviving, so they started making things up and saying things that were not true. They are still making things up.

Even on this thread we read that he is not actually a REAL film or camera producer. He is only a promoter and nothing he does should be taken seriously. It is even to the point that people are deriding what he does for a living, which is search the Japanese camera market for people who are requesting a specific camera.

Craig75 · Oct 3, 2017

Pioneer said:
I think that Cosina's Bessa line of rangefinders is a terrific example here. They were actually quite good but they were certainly not perfect. They certainly were not Leica replicas, but they were of high enough quality that people were willing to pay for them.

And those bessas and zeiss ikon were the follow on from the yasuhara which was just one guy saying ok i want to build a new rangefinder. Yes it seemed to have a few problems which of course it would being a very small enterprise but it sold and kicked the door open for other new rangefinders.

Anything that can get quality japanese film camera designers back in the game can only be a good thing. Even if this camera is a total mess it will kick the door open to get new simple to use high quality cameras back in peoples hands.

For the life of me i cant understand how people can complain about that.

blockend · Oct 3, 2017

Pioneer said:
But reviving an old, discontinued film stock is perfectly fine. And that is exactly what Bellamy did, and that is exactly what he said he did. I never once read anything where he claimed otherwise, except for in these forums. At no time did he claim to have designed a brand new type of film. Not even Ferrania has claimed to be developing a new film, but they are reviving old types of film that were previously produced and then went out of production.

I think some people got upset when he wouldn't specify exactly which film stock he was reviving, so they started making things up and saying things that were not true. They are still making things up.

Even on this thread we read that he is not actually a REAL film or camera producer. He is only a promoter and nothing he does should be taken seriously. It is even to the point that people are deriding what he does for a living, which is search the Japanese camera market for people who are requesting a specific camera.

I'm not accusing Bellamy of anything, as far as I recall he said the film is not available anywhere else, which could mean all kinds of things. I assume - and I'm happy to be proven wrong - that a manufacturer does not keep redundant technology to hand, so the coating process is probably a standard line that is not currently running (like aviation film), rather than, say, the reinstitution of Agfapan 25 or Plus-X.

The risk is Bellamy Hunt's, and people can buy the film or not, as is their prerogative.

E. von Hoegh · Oct 3, 2017

CMoore said:
Like i said, contact Kentmere.....see what their minimum Buy-In is....then have them send you film that says ...Analog Heaven... on the box.
People on "The Internet" will be going ape shit over this Awesome "New" film that "You" are selling.

I'd buy some "Bill & Ted's Excellent Emulsion".

removedacct1 · Oct 4, 2017

Pioneer said:
I did as full of a review of that film as possible on the Rangefindeforum. Perhaps you would like to go there and check it out. Or...better yet...buy it for yourself and decide for yourself.

I took the time to find your review, and I can't help but note that right out of the gate, other readers asked the same questions I did, wondering why this repackaged AGFA traffic surveillance film is more than twice the price of HP5, etc.

If Bergger can create a brand new emulsion in this age, and present it for competitive prices, then why, oh why, is Bellamy Hunt asking more than twice the price for a retired traffic surveillance film, repackaged??

Having choices is a great thing. Being presented with a "new" choice that seems to cost far in excess of any other emulsion without offering any distinct advantages looks a bit like opportunism to me.

removedacct1 · Oct 4, 2017

Gerald C Koch said:
Photrio is not a cheering section for each new product that appears on the market. Members should feel free to express their opinions without any false sense of guilt.

Indeed, why should anyone be attacked and derided simply for being critical or skeptical of a new product or service?? It would be pointless to simply shout "hooray!" every time someone stepped up to the target audience, offering up a "new" product! JCH Street Pan is not a new product - we know this - it is a rebranding of an older AGFA surveillance film. I have no problem whatsoever with this practice, but when the product is marketed at twice the price of any comparable existing product, I have to ask why, and what am I getting for this "premium" price? Why is it that asking this question makes me a bad person whose intent is to "troll" and spout pointless negativity??! I don't understand how anyone could come to that conclusion. Am I just supposed to cheer mindlessly and say its all good for the film industry?! I'm sorry if you disapprove, but when Hunt offers Street Pan for such an outrageous price, I can't help but think this is a opportunistic venture.
Nobody has yet explained to me why this "new" film is worth twice the price of any other 400 asa emulsion, so I remain skeptical. If asking out loud whether or not I'm getting $11.00 of value from a single roll of 120 film makes me a "troll", then so be it - I can live with being branded as such, for asking what I think is a worthy question.

pentaxuser · Oct 4, 2017

I wonder what our reaction would be if Ilford revived say HP3 and charged twice the price of its HP5+. There might be good reasons why the charge is what it is but if so then we should be given the reasons, shouldn't we. On the other hand this is only necessary if the seller wants us on his side and if there are enough people prepared to pay the price then the seller may ask why he should explain anything. The price is the price and we are free to walk away.

In the "tooth and claw" of the free market I have made my decision. As Nancy would have said: "Are you ready, boots?

pentaxuser

E. von Hoegh · Oct 4, 2017

ic-racer said:
I guess some people use film for the social image it portrays. Other people use film for the silver image it portrays.

I think that's the "it" of it in a nutshell.
Well said.

Pioneer · Oct 4, 2017

paulbarden said:
Indeed, why should anyone be attacked and derided simply for being critical or skeptical of a new product or service??

Like I said in my first post, pure BS.

First; you were not directly attacked, though you seem to feel you were.

Second; You know full well I wasn't referring to your being critical of the cost or performance of a new/remanufactured product.

Those are all smoke screens. Some of you are using these smoke screens to cover your attacks on an individual.

Re read your first post. Maybe you can figure out why you feel you were attacked, though you are not the only one for sure.

This seems to happen a lot on this forum.

Perhaps some of you need to admit that young people, hipsters and even Bellamy Hunt play an important part in this analogue world, whether you like it or not.

CMoore · Oct 4, 2017

pentaxuser said:
I wonder what our reaction would be if Ilford revived say HP3 and.......

We would be calling you a Bellamy.....i mean an Ilford Fan-Boy.
This whole thing is bizzare. I get the feeling most of the people that bought this stuff had no idea what it was. They paid 10-12 bux a roll, so it must be good.
It is like Nike had Three Thousand pairs of unsold ABC tennis shoes in their warehouse, and i bought them, put a different name on the box, and then sold them for more than what other comparable shoes are selling for.
Then when the people that bought them learn the truth, they get upset because the "Criticizers" are somehow jealous and are missing out on a pair of really great shoes.
I could by a License from APUG.....reprint their forum archives, charge more than the APUG membership and call it Analog History Files.
Would THAT be anymore informative than just going to The APUG Forum.?

Gerald C Koch · Oct 4, 2017

Pioneer said:
But reviving an old, discontinued film stock is perfectly fine. And that is exactly what Bellamy did, and that is exactly what he said he did. I never once read anything where he claimed otherwise, except for in these forums. At no time did he claim to have designed a brand new type of film. Not even Ferrania has claimed to be developing a new film, but they are reviving old types of film that were previously produced and then went out of production.

I think some people got upset when he wouldn't specify exactly which film stock he was reviving, so they started making things up and saying things that were not true. They are still making things up.

Even on this thread we read that he is not actually a REAL film or camera producer. He is only a promoter and nothing he does should be taken seriously. It is even to the point that people are deriding what he does for a living, which is search the Japanese camera market for people who are requesting a specific camera.

E. von Hoegh · Oct 4, 2017

Gerald C Koch said:
This sentiment has been expressed before and I didn't care for it the first time. Photrio is not a cheering section for each new product that appears on the market. Members should feel free to express their opinions without any false sense of guilt.

BTW we are alsonot responsible for the current lack of interest in young people for analog photography.

+1
It seems that some expect members to be wholeheartedly behind anything that might result in the sale of film and or film cameras, regardless whether the film is overpriced relabeled stuff (streetpan) or the cameras are overpriced fuzzywuzzys and gimmicks (lomography). Both the aforementioned give analog photography a popular image that is inaccurate and therefore are a disservice to the craft. But, it sells film so we're supposed to be 100% unreservedly behind it. Rubbish.

Let's say I start harvesting a few models each of basic SLR and rangefinder cameras- say Pentax Spotmatic/ K1000 types and nonGIII Canon RFs/ Yashicas - overhauling and selling them with user's manuals and a basic book on 35mm photography and darkroom, say one of Hedgecoe's. Now that would be a true service to analog photography and I bet I'd go broke at it because they aren't what the cool kids want, because all most of the cool kids are aware of is Lomography and similar crap.

Gerald C Koch · Oct 4, 2017

Pioneer said:
But reviving an old, discontinued film stock is perfectly fine. And that is exactly what Bellamy did, and that is exactly what he said he did. I never once read anything where he claimed otherwise,
.

That is exactly the problem -- he said nothing. If 'pan' did not appear in the name Streetpan we would not even know that the film is panchromatic. Is the original film a negative film or something else. There are too many unanswered questions.

And all of Bellamy's products/endeavors suffer from the same deficiency that is lack of information. I gather from his website that he is not actually designing or manufacturing this proposed new camera. In essence he is saying that he thinks such a camera would be sort after and he wants someone to step and make it.

Alan Johnson · Oct 4, 2017

Some of the Ricoh GR series cameras tick all the right boxes for landscape photography - wide angle lens , adjustable ISO , take screw in filters , still selling at high prices and. I would like to see a newer and more reliable version , perhaps not quite up to the original spec which had a 7 element lens . Perhaps a 4 element 28mm might do , I know little of lens design.

Craig75 · Oct 4, 2017

Gerald C Koch said:
I gather from his website that he is not actually designing or manufacturing this proposed new camera. In essence he is saying that he thinks such a camera would be sort after and he wants someone to step and make it.

see the emulsive interview linked previously in the thread

Gerald C Koch · Oct 4, 2017

Craig75 said:
see the emulsive interview linked previously in the thread

If the interview is to quiet my doubts as to the paucity of information then this reviewer thought the same; "Hunt reportedly didn't reveal much about the planned 35mm camera ...".

https://www.dpreview.com/news/36378...er-is-designing-a-35mm-premium-compact-camera

Craig75 · Oct 4, 2017

Gerald C Koch said:
If the interview is to quiet my doubts as to the paucity of information then this reviewer thought the same; "Hunt reportedly didn't reveal much about the planned 35mm camera ...".

https://www.dpreview.com/news/36378...er-is-designing-a-35mm-premium-compact-camera

ok what you have just said doesn't even make any sense.

I gather from his website that he is not actually designing or manufacturing this proposed new camera. In essence he is saying that he thinks such a camera would be sort after and he wants someone to step and make it.

there's the emulsive interview telling you he's got a team together and they are going to give it a go.

DPREVIEW is just reporting on the save analogue broadcast. The Emulsive interview is after that broadcast.

blockend · Oct 4, 2017

Alan Johnson said:
Some of the Ricoh GR series cameras tick all the right boxes for landscape photography - wide angle lens , adjustable ISO , take screw in filters , still selling at high prices and. I would like to see a newer and more reliable version , perhaps not quite up to the original spec which had a 7 element lens . Perhaps a 4 element 28mm might do , I know little of lens design.

There were a number of "cool" high ticket 35mm compact cameras that are even more desirable now. I have no idea of manufacturing economies of scale, but it seems the best way to get such a camera would be to convince Ricoh, Nikon, Fuji or whoever that they could bring out the old plans, and have a steady sale of cameras with little cost sensitivity. No R&D and make your price up is the perfect storm. If they want to tweak the tech, so much the better but twenty year old will do nicely.

Maybe £1500 for a fancy P&S isn't enough incentive to start the line rolling, but if not I don't see how Bellamy can hope to go one better.

Gerald C Koch · Oct 4, 2017

Craig75 said:
ok what you have just said doesn't even make any sense.

there's the emulsive interview telling you he's got a team together and they are going to give it a go.

DPREVIEW is just reporting on the save analogue broadcast. The Emulsive interview is after that broadcast.

Since you didn't give me any link or other reference I am not going to search thru 70 posts to find the one you are referring to. Continuing on this thread is pointless. You are not going to convert me nor I you.

Craig75 · Oct 4, 2017

Gerald C Koch said:
Since you didn't give me any link or other reference I am not going to search thru 70 posts to find the one you are referring to. Continuing on this thread is pointless. You are not going to convert me nor I you.

See your own post #18. No need to search the thread only your own posts.

Alan Johnson · Oct 4, 2017

I don't follow it closely but it appears that the only full frame 28mm lens from a mirrorless digital camera is that from the Leica Q , ie there does not seem to be an adaptable mid price 28 mm lens.

Craig75 · Oct 4, 2017

Sorry im with huss and pioneer.

Thread is completely lame.

Not my scene but have fun. Some killer printers on here.

canuhead · Oct 4, 2017

ic-racer said:
I guess some people use film for the social image it portrays. Other people use film for the silver image it portrays.

I think this is bang on !

Japan Camera Hunter designing NEW premium film camera

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