J & C Photo brand film

[cmacd123]

I recall buying a few items from J&C. their 120 100 B&W looked identical (rught down to teh red foil wrapper to Seagull GP3 as it existed at th etime. They had a "Classic B&W" which although labeled Made in Germany, was apparently a private labeled version of Forte 400. I vaguely recall that they may have also bought some EFKE film from Croatia.

I did miss them when they closed down.

 

[David A. Goldfarb]

The J&C film from Efke was good, in my experience, but after they collapsed, it transpired that they’d left some of their investors, suppliers, and major purchasers out a lot of money and disappeared, while most of us smaller purchasers knew nothing about what happened. To many of us, myself included, it seemed like sheet film was too small and specialized a market for anyone to have any interest in pursuing such a swindle, but it may be that that’s just what happened. The last I tried to track them down when the company seemed to have fallen apart, all I could find was an address in rural Alaska.

 

[AgX]

Orwo/Calbe had made a financial an agreement with Agfa to drop the the use of Agfa Trade names, this was insisted on by Gevaert as part of the Agfa and Gevaert merger.

Not quite.There was no couplig between both matters.
For not to establish reasons original Agfa in the postwar years missed to protect their brand and tradenames correctly. Thus when a second Agfa was established in West-Germany, the trouble began. As long both Agfas were dependand on each other in raw stock supply and interacted, this somehow worked out. But with western Agfa growing up and finally becoming independ of eastern Agfa, the decision was made in Wolfen and East-Berlin to forget about their Agfa brand and tradenames and make a new start with a new brand and to reestablish them on the world market, where western Agfa meanwhile dominated.

 

[Ian Grant]

The J&C film from Efke was good, in my experience, but after they collapsed, it transpired that they’d left some of their investors, suppliers, and major purchasers out a lot of money and disappeared, while most of us smaller purchasers knew nothing about what happened. To many of us, myself included, it seemed like sheet film was too small and specialized a market for anyone to have any interest in pursuing such a swindle, but it may be that that’s just what happened. The last I tried to track them down when the company seemed to have fallen apart, all I could find was an address in rural Alaska.

You were lucky with your EFKE film but I think it was only a short period of time and possibly one batch defective sheet film J&C sold. There were plenty of others who weren't lucky and Mirko (Fotoimpex) posted here that he'd introduced new quality inspection and control.

Ian

 

[removed account4]

They had a perfect storm. ...
J&c moved locations and were doing well enough they had a deal with Kodak to do some sort of tmax film distribution. People gave $ and the film was delivered to j&c and waited in a warehouse and then the owner was hospitalized from what I remember. Someone raided the warehouse and from what I remember through conversations with PE in the chat room the film was shipped to China without j&c ‘s knowledge... still in the hospital recovering (?) freestyle became a large competitor and distributed European films and j&c vanished...
PE said the story about the warehouse and film ending up in the Chinese market was like a Hollywood movie..

 

[Ian Grant]

The guy was a con man.

On the right is the packaging for Calbe RO9, centre Agfa Rodinal and left John's JandC Photo repackaged CAlbe RO9.

Ian

 

[AgX]

The guy was a con man.

What is a con man?

 

[Kodachromeguy]

What is a con man?

This is an American term for someone who cheats other people. Similar terms could be "scammer" or "fraudster."

 

[AgX]

Well, after the sale of their consumer division Agfa let ran out the rights on their related trademarks. John Minakais, the man behind J&C, for instance legally took the name "Rodinal" and got it protected in the USA. No cheating on this matter.

Concerning the relation of content and name, there was a lot confusion and misleading in that period induced by much bigger players around former Agfa products and still is going on (Agfapan).

 

[removed account4]

The guy was a con man.

Not at all ... according to Mirko and in various threads here on this site there have been a variety of formulations of the RO9 and Rodinal formulation. Was Photowarehouse or Bregger acting like con-men when they repackaged and resold Ilford BW film / paper or Forte film / paper?
Not much of a difference ( to me at least )...

 

[Ian Grant]

This is an American term for someone who cheats other people. Similar terms could be "scammer" or "fraudster."

It's an English (British) term for Confidence Trickster so also passed into use in other English speaking countries.

Ian

 

[David A. Goldfarb]

The guy was a con man.

Rodinal aside, this seems to have been the case, unfortunately. Most of us wouldn’t know that, myself included, but the folks who lost money at the end pursued legal remedies and learned more about J&C’s background in the process. I don’t know if they ever recouped their money.

 

[BrianShaw]

... but it’s often difficult, unless there is a civil judgement or criminal conviction, to discern between a con artist and an investment scheme that just didn’t work out...

IDK as I was just watching from the sideline.

 

[Ian Grant]

Not at all ... according to Mirko and in various threads here on this site there have been a variety of formulations of the RO9 and Rodinal formulation. Was Photowarehouse or Bregger acting like con-men when they repackaged and resold Ilford BW film / paper or Forte film / paper?
Not much of a difference ( to me at least )...

There's a huge difference. There was or is nothing under-hand with the other companies you mention selling re-branded products, that was part of the sales agreements between the manufacturers and the wholesaler/retailer.

After all Ilford manufactured two of Fuji's B&W films, Fuji put made in the EU on the packaging, all above board and legitimate unlike J&C's actions.

Ian

 

[David A. Goldfarb]

All I have is hearsay from one of the affected parties, so I can’t say for sure, but that person was strongly convinced, based on their attorney’s investigation, that it was more than an investment gone bad.

 

[Ian Grant]

Rodinal aside, this seems to have been the case, unfortunately. Most of us wouldn’t know that, myself included, but the folks who lost money at the end pursued legal remedies and learned more about J&C’s background in the process. I don’t know if they ever recouped their money.

All I have is hearsay from one of the affected parties, so I can’t say for sure, but that person was strongly convinced, based on their attorney’s investigation, that it was more than an investment gone bad.

I had some inside knowledge of what went on with RetroPhotographic here in the UK and as a result also J&C. The difference was a lack of business skills with RetroPhotographic here in the UK, the owner wasn't a con-man. I think he knew he was in trouble I'd bought a few items from him then wanted to place a large order for Forte/Classic (Fotoimpex) paper and film and he wouldn't take my order - it was around £1,000 so roughly $1,300 at today's exchange rates. Eventually I bought direct from Berlin.

Ian

 

[Donald Qualls]

I don't know that it made my last move with me, but I had a pack of the J&C 8x10 that was mis-cut to full inch dimensions instead of film size. I bought it very cheaply, knowing it wouldn't fit in holders (I've never owned an 8x10 film holder, so I didn't care). My intention was to use it in a homebrewed pinhole camera that, as it turned out, I never had time to build. IIRC, what I paid for it was comparable to what folks pay for x-ray film -- that is, the 8x10 cost me a little less per sheet than correctly cut off-brand 4x5 would have.

 

[MattKing]

The only J& C film I ever bought was decent film, but would also serve as a good replacement for spring steel, as it curled so strongly!
In my experience, there are two general types who end up being described as "con" men - those who over-promise and fail to deliver, despite an intention to fulfill those promises, and those who over-promise and fail to deliver, while never having any intention to fulfill those promises.

 

[Donald Qualls]

there are two general types who end up being described as "con" men - those who over-promise and fail to deliver, despite an intention to fulfill those promises, and those who over-promise and fail to deliver, while never having any intention to fulfill those promises.

Of course, to the "victim" it's virtually impossible to tell the two apart, so it's very easy to label the former as the latter when you're still smarting from having your wallet emptied and getting nothing for it.

 

[David A. Goldfarb]

I had some inside knowledge of what went on with RetroPhotographic here in the UK and as a result also J&C.

I know nothing about what happened with RetroPhotographic.

 

[removed account4]

Rodinal aside, this seems to have been the case, unfortunately. Most of us wouldn’t know that, myself included, but the folks who lost money at the end pursued legal remedies and learned more about J&C’s background in the process. I don’t know if they ever recouped their money.

All I have is hearsay from one of the affected parties, so I can’t say for sure, but that person was strongly convinced, based on their attorney’s investigation, that it was more than an investment gone bad.

There's a huge difference. There was or is nothing under-hand with the other companies you mention selling re-branded products, that was part of the sales agreements between the manufacturers and the wholesaler/retailer.

After all Ilford manufactured two of Fuji's B&W films, Fuji put made in the EU on the packaging, all above board and legitimate unlike J&C's actions.

Ian

David and Ian
Thank you for your insights in these matters. I only know what happened through what I heard in drips and dribbles from people I know/know of who lost $ when all the Kodak film was "vanished" from the warehouse when JM was in the hospital. ( as mentioned previously ) I also remember conversations I had with PE in the chatroom back in the day that things were not what they seemed, and the real story might never be told. He would often talk about how he wasn't really able to say what actually happened but he seemed to know people or know of people who were peripherally involved or somehow had knowledge about "stuff". I didn't really question PE's authority in the matter but he said that there was crime and intrigue and "mysteriously" all the film ended up in the Far East, and then there was a new distributer of the film and a name change...
I feel very. badly for the people who lost money and film, and even though you have painted JM as a crooked and despicable businessman I feel badly for him because I think if he didn't get sick and have to spend time in the hospital, and his film didn't "vanish" it would have been delivered and he'd still be selling efke / adox film to the film community, and he'd probably still be one of the people who keep this site afloat through advertising &c.
Its sad how sometimes things go amiss and a lot of people get affected by the problems ( intended or not intended ).
==
I shot a ton of classic pan in 120 format and remember it LOVED caffenol c, I remember it had a weird base color after it was processed. but the prints looked so nice.

 

[braxus]

I bought some of J&C Classic 400 in 4x5 at one time. It seemed like okay film. Kinda wish I kept the remaining amount instead of selling it. It was contrasty and grainy for its size. Someone said it had the look of OLD Tri-X. Never got to confirm that.

 

[BradS]

I used a shit-ton of Classic Pan 400. It was the only film I used for a few years. It took me quite a few rolls to figure out how to deal with it but once I had a process dialed in, I loved the stuff. I was really bummed when it was no longer available.

Classic Pan 400 was nothing like any Tri-X that I remember (back to the early 1970's) though. It was not like anything I can remember. It was very contrasty, could be grainy as hell or fairly smooth but there was no getting around the grain! The spectral response was fairly unique too as I recall.

 

[cmacd123]

Classic Pan 400 was nothing like any Tri-X that I remember (back to the early 1970's) though. It was not like anything I can remember. It was very contrasty, could be grainy as hell or fairly smooth but there was no getting around the grain! The spectral response was fairly unique too as I recall.

From the look of the 35mm version, the edge print looked similar to Forte. Forte was built before WWII as the Kodak plant for that part of the world, so I would guess that their film "Paid Homage" to Kodak's fast film from before the iron curtain. would have been hard to tell back then, and impossible to tell now with the Forte factory sold as flattened real estate. Only one in the industry with any idea is the lad from Adox Berlin, and he might consider what he knows as part of his business Knowledge as he works on reviving some paper similar to Forte's Greatest Hits.

 

[BradS]

From the look of the 35mm version, the edge print looked similar to Forte. Forte was built before WWII as the Kodak plant for that part of the world, so I would guess that their film "Paid Homage" to Kodak's fast film from before the iron curtain. would have been hard to tell back then, and impossible to tell now with the Forte factory sold as flattened real estate. Only one in the industry with any idea is the lad from Adox Berlin, and he might consider what he knows as part of his business Knowledge as he works on reviving some paper similar to Forte's Greatest Hits.

yes, I was referring to Classic Pan 400 in 35mm. I remember that, at the time, it was widely believed to be Forte pan 400. I also remember that it was comparatively inexpensive.