issues w/ Rodinal and HP5

29neibolt · May 18, 2018

Hi guys,

I'm new to developing B&W. I'm using a Paterson tank to develop a roll of HP5, and the attached negatives are what I've ended up with on my first two rolls with the tank (both HP5, both developed 1 roll at a time). Any ideas what could cause this? Am I loading the reel incorrectly? Please and thanks in advance!

Rodinal (1+50) for 11 minutes w/ 5 slow inversions every minute. Ilfostop for 30 seconds. Ilford rapid fixer for 5 minutes. Rinse. Photo Flo. Scream into a pillow.

https://imgur.com/43ePKpa
https://imgur.com/TzPAdvp

awty · May 18, 2018

Looks to me to be light leaks. Did you load the film onto the spool in complete darkness? I have had something similar when I have taken too long to load the film and there has been a slither of light come through a crack in the door or something.....Or even a dark bag when I have removed my hand while putting film on the spool.

If the chemistry is good than your process would not cause that. Any chemistry problems would be more even.

howardpan · May 18, 2018

I can’t tell from your photos if this is a roll of 120 or 135. It would also be useful to see the entire negative and more frames. I also assume you followed Ilford’s instructions and fixed at 1+4 dilution for 2-4 minutes. Did you get a single good frame?

29neibolt · May 18, 2018

awty said:
Looks to me to be light leaks. Did you load the film onto the spool in complete darkness? I have had something similar when I have taken too long to load the film and there has been a slither of light come through a crack in the door or something.....Or even a dark bag when I have removed my hand while putting film on the spool.

If the chemistry is good than your process would not cause that. Any chemistry problems would be more even.

I loaded it in the same changing bag both times. I've wondered if the elastic bands around the wrist were tight enough so I suspect you're right. I was fussing with the spool for a long time both times as well. I'll try another round loading in a dark room instead. Thank you!

awty · May 18, 2018

29neibolt said:
I loaded it in the same changing bag both times. I've wondered if the elastic bands around the wrist were tight enough so I suspect you're right. I was fussing with the spool for a long time both times as well. I'll try another round loading in a dark room instead. Thank you!

Yes always good idea to load at night in the dark.
My change bag has two elastic bands and will still leak if Im not careful. Best to do it in a light proof room, which is far easier to do than a change bag. My hands often sweat in the change bag and the film sticks and it usually ends in tears. You just need to have a cry in your beer, dust yourself off and try again. The more you do the less failures you have, but even after developing hundreds of rolls I still make the occasional mistakes.
BTW I like rodinal 25:1 @ 20C for 8 mins with hp5......but the difference isnt enough to concern you at this stage.

TonyB65 · May 18, 2018

29neibolt said:
Hi guys,

I'm new to developing B&W. I'm using a Paterson tank to develop a roll of HP5, and the attached negatives are what I've ended up with on my first two rolls with the tank (both HP5, both developed 1 roll at a time). Any ideas what could cause this? Am I loading the reel incorrectly? Please and thanks in advance!

Rodinal (1+50) for 11 minutes w/ 5 slow inversions every minute. Ilfostop for 30 seconds. Ilford rapid fixer for 5 minutes. Rinse. Photo Flo. Scream into a pillow.

https://imgur.com/43ePKpa
https://imgur.com/TzPAdvp

Certainly looks like light leaks and I'd definitely check the lightseals on your camera. It shouldn't be your changing bag as the cuffs usually have a double seal around the arms, one on front of the other. I've never had light leaks from using a changing bag myself. The other thing to check is that your fix is not exhausted, by doing a clip test, which you should do regularly anyway to avoid losing negatives. One other tip, to make loading your reels much easier make sure you don't put them on Photoflo or equivalent, that makes them very sticky (even when dry) and will make loading film onto them a real PITA. Take your film off the reel before you wash in any wetting agent to avoid the inevitable bag fight which happens if you don't.

GLS · May 18, 2018

awty said:
My hands often sweat in the change bag and the film sticks and it usually ends in tears

Use disposable nitrile gloves whilst loading the reels. It makes a world of difference.

guangong · May 18, 2018

While not addressing the specific issue of your thread, I would like to point out that although I do use Rodinal myself, it is not the preferred developer for HP. I’ll probably change when my hord of Agfa Rodinal runs out.

GLS · May 18, 2018

29neibolt said:
Hi guys,

I'm new to developing B&W. I'm using a Paterson tank to develop a roll of HP5, and the attached negatives are what I've ended up with on my first two rolls with the tank (both HP5, both developed 1 roll at a time). Any ideas what could cause this? Am I loading the reel incorrectly? Please and thanks in advance!

Rodinal (1+50) for 11 minutes w/ 5 slow inversions every minute. Ilfostop for 30 seconds. Ilford rapid fixer for 5 minutes. Rinse. Photo Flo. Scream into a pillow.

https://imgur.com/43ePKpa
https://imgur.com/TzPAdvp

Definitely looks like light leaks of some kind. Check the seals on your camera.

Also, apologies for the silly question, but just to rule this possibility out: you are using the central column in the Paterson tank right (the one that goes through the reel)? This is a requirement to make the tank light-tight.

Ces1um · May 18, 2018

What's up with the very noticeable streaking in the second photo? Looks like many many scratches or squeegee issues.

mrosenlof · May 18, 2018

do you have the center post on your patterson reels? It's essential to form the light trap with the hole in the center of the funnel.

mooseontheloose · May 18, 2018

Ces1um said:
What's up with the very noticeable streaking in the second photo? Looks like many many scratches or squeegee issues.

I agree - it looks like scratches (from the camera) or light leaks from the shutter not being closed properly when advancing the frame (I have similar looking negatives due to the latter reason).

29neibolt · May 18, 2018

Thank you so much for all of the input guys! It's really appreciated

awty said:
Yes always good idea to load at night in the dark.
My change bag has two elastic bands and will still leak if Im not careful. Best to do it in a light proof room, which is far easier to do than a change bag. My hands often sweat in the change bag and the film sticks and it usually ends in tears. You just need to have a cry in your beer, dust yourself off and try again. The more you do the less failures you have, but even after developing hundreds of rolls I still make the occasional mistakes.
BTW I like rodinal 25:1 @ 20C for 8 mins with hp5......but the difference isnt enough to concern you at this stage.

Yeah I hear you re: rodinal not being optimal with hp5. It was more just a test roll that I burned off- I've been using the rodinal for stand developing with 4x5 negatives.

TonyB65 said:
Certainly looks like light leaks and I'd definitely check the lightseals on your camera. It shouldn't be your changing bag as the cuffs usually have a double seal around the arms, one on front of the other. I've never had light leaks from using a changing bag myself. The other thing to check is that your fix is not exhausted, by doing a clip test, which you should do regularly anyway to avoid losing negatives. One other tip, to make loading your reels much easier make sure you don't put them on Photoflo or equivalent, that makes them very sticky (even when dry) and will make loading film onto them a real PITA. Take your film off the reel before you wash in any wetting agent to avoid the inevitable bag fight which happens if you don't.

Lightseals are all good on my camera- I've shot probably 20 rolls of color film with no issue at all. I took my hands out of the cuffs at one point so I'm imagining that is the culprit. I'll give a clip test a try as well, and thanks for the tip re photoflo!

GLS said:
Definitely looks like light leaks of some kind. Check the seals on your camera.

Also, apologies for the silly question, but just to rule this possibility out: you are using the central column in the Paterson tank right (the one that goes through the reel)? This is a requirement to make the tank light-tight.

the black one, right? yes that's in there. The agitation stick does not need to be in, right?

Ces1um said:
What's up with the very noticeable streaking in the second photo? Looks like many many scratches or squeegee issues.

I think it's from my squeegee- I'll be leaving that out next test.

GLS · May 18, 2018

29neibolt said:
The agitation stick does not need to be in, right?

No, not needed to block out light.

Pentode · May 18, 2018

29neibolt said:
I took my hands out of the cuffs at one point so I'm imagining that is the culprit.

Aha!! Now we're getting somewhere!
Yes, if you took your hands out of the cuffs it's very, very likely to be the culprit.

Loading reels is a PITA. Doing it in a changing bag is a BIG PITA. The suggestions of the others to load in a blacked-out room is right on the mark. It's really a lot easier.
Take a sacrificial roll of film and practice with the lights on for a while. Then practice with your eyes closed. Repeat. And repeat. And repeat....
And then after you've practiced for a while you'll still mess up from time to time. The good news is it really does keep getting easier the more you do it.
It's a good idea to just shoot a bunch of rolls of mundane stuff around the neighborhood at first so you don't lose anything really important.
Lastly, and most importantly, make sure you have fun. It's the crux of the whole thing.

mooseontheloose · May 18, 2018

29neibolt said:
I took my hands out of the cuffs at one point so I'm imagining that is the culprit.

I did that once too, with Kodak HIE - my hands were really sweaty (this was in the middle of a Japanese summer) and I just couldn't get the film to load properly. There was some fogging, but it was uniform across the roll, so I guess I was lucky with that. So I definitely feel your pain. However, I've been using a changing bag for 13+ years now and I can definitely recommend two things - one, if you have a small bag, try getting a larger one (or even a changing tent). I say this because you mention having the cuffs around the wrists - I put the cuffs on my arms, above my elbows, and still have plenty of room to spare. Having more room/air will keep things cooler and easier to manage. Two, if you know you'll be loading film and it's hot out, crank up the air conditioning much higher than normal for at least 20 minutes prior to changing your film. If the air is really cold your hands are less likely to sweat. At least, that's how it works for me. And, in the event that you just need to take your hand out, just roll up the film quickly and put it in the tank. That way it's in a light tight place while you take your hands out.

Even though I have a darkroom, it's a pain to make it light tight just to load a few rolls of film, so I prefer using the bag, even after all these years. That, and for some reason standing while loading film always makes me anxious and I'm more likely to f@#% up. But that's just me.

Toyo · May 18, 2018

guangong said:
While not addressing the specific issue of your thread, I would like to point out that although I do use Rodinal myself, it is not the preferred developer for HP. I’ll probably change when my hord of Agfa Rodinal runs out.

Yes, HP5 doesn't like Rodinal/RO9 with agitation.
I have had good results with HP5 and RO9 and stand development - way less grain and reasonable contrast
T

GLS · May 19, 2018

mooseontheloose said:
I did that once too, with Kodak HIE - my hands were really sweaty (this was in the middle of a Japanese summer) and I just couldn't get the film to load properly

I know I already mentioned this, but I can't stress it enough: nitrile gloves are a godsend for film loading. You can get a pack of 100 for a few pounds/dollars (such as these https://www.amazon.co.uk/Nitrile-Po...qid=1526726259&sr=8-6&keywords=nitrile+gloves). They are also a good safety precaution when doing the actual developing too (especially with nastier stuff like pyro), so serve both purposes. Just make sure you get the right size, as ones that are too big will hinder your dexterity and sense of touch.

Pentode · May 19, 2018

Another useful tip when using a changing bag:
If you place a cardboard box on its side in the bag, you essentially convert it to a changing tent. The box keeps the fabric up and off your hands so you can work unimpeded. It doesn't help with the sweat, but it still makes things more comfortable.

29neibolt · May 19, 2018

Alright, guys I can confirm it was in fact my changing bag. Now, I've got a new one for you!

I shot two test rolls of 120 Ultrafine Extreme 400 with my Pentax 6x7. Here's the first and last three frames of each roll. The first was developed normally, and the second was stand developed. What would cause the last three frames of Roll 2 to turn out like that? Did my fixer gas out?

ROLL 1
https://imgur.com/a/xUWtvSx

Rodinal - 1:49
Ilfostop
Ilford Rapid Fixer
rinse
Photoflo

13 min in developer - 1 min initial agitation, then 10 seconds per minute
45 sec stop bath
5 min fix

ROLL 2
https://imgur.com/a/jcdzfQo

Rodinal - 1:100
Ilfostop - half strength
Ilford Rapid Fixer - used the same batch as Roll 1
rinse
Photoflo

1 hr in developer - 30 sec initial agitation, 3 inversions at halfway point
1 min stop bath
6 min fix

Pentode · May 19, 2018

Whatever it was had to be camera related. Anything chemistry related would have affected the whole roll.

mrosenlof · May 19, 2018

I agree a chemistry problem would hit the entire roll. This one looks like way over exposure through the lens and shutter. Like the shutter stayed open considerably longer than needed. Notice that the film edges are not uniformly over-exposed. Shutter error or operator error seem the two likely reasons to me.

awty · May 20, 2018

As the others said, looks to be a major over exposure in camera problem.
You can and should regularly test your fixer with a little bit of undeveloped film. If you under fix you can tell by the film being cloudy in between frames, just put it back on a development tank spool and refix with new fixer.

tezzasmall · May 20, 2018

If it was a camera issue on the second roll, last three pictures, it must have been an awful lot of light fog, as the gap between the frames has been totally fogged as well, whilst the outer edges with the frame numbers on seem fine, so the extra light is restricted to light coming through the lens (and being so bright to bleed out onto the frame gaps / spaces. It seems to start on the third from end and then the last two.

I would put it down to a camera issue as well, somehow over exposing the last few frames AN AWFUL LOT, as one can make out the image still, but it's been heavily overexposed some how. How though I'm not sure. Do all the shutter speeds work fine? It looks like the shutter may have been open more than it should = maybe on B or a lower than meant shutter setting and a wide aperture briefly?

I think you will only tell by your next roll, where you will have to be VERY careful both in loading, unloading and when setting both the shutter speeds and aperture.

Terry S

Steve Roberts · May 20, 2018

For the initial issue of this post, I'd have to disagree with the opinions that HP5/Rodinal are not a good match. This combination suits me very well, especially for the Olympus 35RC that I keep loaded with HP5 as an "always on me" camera when on trips. My processing details are Rodinal (or RO9) at 1 + 50, 20 degs C, agitate for the first 30 secs then two inversions each 30 secs for a total of 15 mins. Usual stop, fix, wash, etc.. Though grain would undoubtedly show at higher enlargements, for my usual 10" x 7" it's not an issue at all. The tonal range and convenience of a fast film and a developer concentrate with a virtually unlimited shelf life have a lot going for them. My suggestion would be that you resolve the changing bag/light leak issue and persevere with that combination. Doing your film reel loading at night gets you half way to solving some of your problems.
Good luck with it!
Steve

issues w/ Rodinal and HP5

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