Issue with Bromoil Printing (& printing in general)

[whitelight]

Hello all,

I'm edging close to insanity - I've been having constant issues making Bromoil prints. Simply put, the 'spots' that show up during processing (as a silver gelatin), refuse to allow ink to adhere evenly on paper.

During processing as a silver gelatin, hundreds of dark/black 'spots' show up on the base (non-emulsion side) when the paper comes into contact with any form of liquid for a time longer than 5+ or so minutes (fix, wash etc). Spots seem to make the paper look translucent when paper is held up against a light source when looking from the emulsion side.

The spots go away when paper is dried... however they return as soon as the paper comes in contact with liquid again (e.g. for toning, or bleaching in this case for bromoils) and the size of the spots are larger than originally seen when first processed.

These (now large) spots end up being the exact locations where ink won't properly adhere in the final inking stage of making Bromoil prints.

I bought a brand new 10m roll from Foma a couple months ago (Fomabrom 112 Matt), the first .5 to 1m of the paper worked without flaws, but after that, headaches.
I used the last of a 2yrs+ old pack of Ilford MG FB Matt last week - worked well.
Bought some brand new Ilford MG FB Matt this week, but issue was present. Both newly purchased paper stocks have been stored in a lab environment where humidity and temp is controlled.

Cannot figure out where I'm going wrong... despite the countless trial and errors.

If anyone has any input, I'd highly appreciate it!!

Few points:
- Issue present in both recently purchased Fomabrom 112 Matt & Ilford MG FB Matt
- Chem baths always made fresh. Constant agitation to limit air bubbles.
- Hardly ever any changes in processing, except improvements (using unopened bottle of dev vs opened dev, increasing washing time etc)
- Foma believes issue is due to humidity (however the issue presented itself after only 1-2months in my possession)
- What has worked: Fomabrom 112 purchased as 8x10 sheets + the 2yrs+ old Ilford MG FB Matt as mentioned above.

 

[koraks]

The spots look like places where water more easily permeates the paper base. Since paper is usually not a perfectly homogeneous product especially in terms of its internal sizing, these kinds of spots will virtually always show up eventually if you soak the paper for long enough. Some papers do this immediately, some take a really long time. I suppose many factors can influence the extent and speed with which this happens. My first thought would be the presence of a wetting agent and the pH of the processing baths. A wetting agent will make it easier for water to entirely permeate the fiber matrix of the paper, and prolonged treatment of either an acidic or a very alkaline fluid may mess with the internal sizing of the paper.

Sorry, I'm of no help...all I could suggest is review the chemistry used and see if you've made any changes in that without noticing, and start eliminating processing steps to see which one is responsible for the issue emerging in the first place. Actually, as a control, I'd start by just dunking a piece of paper in plain tap water for 10 minutes and see if the problem emerges. If so, it's probably quite difficult to prevent it from happening however careful you are, and might indeed be due to storage conditions. Mind you, this might even be caused by storage conditions that existed for a brief period of time, even though present conditions are appropriate.

 

[nmp]

Since same problem persists with 2 different manufacturers, I guess we can rule out that the papers arrive with this defect. Otherwise, it would be too much of a coincidence. So something might be happening in the processing environment.

It almost looks like a spray of some kind of surfactant is getting onto the paper - like T-20 or something, which then forms these hydrophilic islands that suck up liquid much faster than the bulk of the paper. Anything like that floating around in the workflow - like where you are cutting sheets out of the roll. (Is bad Ilford batch also out of the roll?)

Don't know....

:Niranjan.

 

[koraks]

Since same problem persists with 2 different manufacturers, I guess we can rule out that the papers arrive with this defect.

I wouldn't be so quick in assuming this. How many manufacturers of the actual paper base are still active, supplying European photographic printing paper manufacturers? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression it's only...one.
Besides, as I said, all papers eventually exhibit this phenomenon sooner or later. I use a lot of etching and printing papers, and while they vary in the extent, size and speed of appearance of these spots, they all succumb eventually. The cheaper papers made of very short fibers and a lot of sizing to hold the stuff together go first (and badly, at that).

Not to say that it can't be related to processing or the environment it takes place in. This certainly plays a role as well.

 

[whitelight]

Thank you both for your input. Just went back to basics - dunked some bits of the same Ilford FB Matt paper in water vs deionised water, plus developer mixed w/ tap water vs developer mixed with deionised water. Slight differences observed when they were just soaked in the water baths, but the issue of the black pepper spots appeared when in the developer... Pretty much new MG developer, batch for this test freshly made.

Quite frustrating I must say! I've found a couple more threads on photrio regarding the same or similar issue, couldn't find a solution however...

 

[cliveh]

Could this be that your original print developer has undissolved metol particles?

 

[whitelight]

Could this be that your original print developer has undissolved metol particles?

I don't think so - I've used multiple bottles of MG Developer. Some old-ish, some opened last week. Batches always made fresh and have never noticed any particles floating around. Sometimes (now rarely), it's worked. E.g. the old Ilford stock, first .5-1m of the new fomabrom 10m roll, etc

 

[whitelight]

Update: Issue solved (I think).

Blotches seems to be areas permeating into the paper through the 'pin pricks" (black dots on base side). The blotches become larger as time progressed, so I intentionally extended soaking time to have one large blotch covering the whole paper... and now we're all good!

Fomabrom 112 - 16x20 Bromoil Print

Credits to members here on Photrio and on social media for the help!

 

[nmp]

Update: Issue solved (I think).

Blotches seems to be areas permeating into the paper through the 'pin pricks" (black dots on base side). The blotches become larger as time progressed, so I intentionally extended soaking time to have one large blotch covering the whole paper... and now we're all good!

Fomabrom 112 - 16x20 Bromoil Print

Credits to members here on Photrio and on social media for the help!
View attachment 321784

Good to hear. If you can't beat them, join them....

:Niranjan.

 

[koraks]

The blotches become larger as time progressed, so I intentionally extended soaking time to have one large blotch covering the whole paper... and now we're all good!

LOL that's an approach I didn't think of Hey, if it works...!

 

[whitelight]

Good to hear. If you can't beat them, join them....

:Niranjan.

Exactly!

LOL that's an approach I didn't think of Hey, if it works...!

Neither did I for way too long! I tried using different batches of paper, chemicals, water vs deionised water, shorten/lengthen times, increase/decrease temp etc (list goes on). Now feel kind of silly that I didn't trial soaking times, but at least I now know my process works a treat!