Is using the camera in manual that difficult.

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blockend

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If a student has a camera that can be set to manual, and they can (or have figured out how to) set aperture and speed, how is that a hurdle?
Because the camera is likely to be larger, heavier, and festooned with additional dials, buttons and superfluous information. The only variables necessary for making an exposure are shutter speed and aperture, and the capacity to wind on the film. Everything beyond that hands some aspect of your photography to a technical designer. That's okay if you want your photography to be a collaboration rather than a personal decision, but I don't trust electronic engineers or software designers to know how I want my negative to come out, and experience has shown I'm correct to entertain that suspicion.

Film photography can be as complicated or a simple as you want to make it. Most film packets still have Sunny 16 info, and with a little experience even that will give you consistently exposed negatives. If your idea of fun is setting exposure bracketing for 1/2 or 1/3 stop increments, or spot metering for five different areas and letting the camera work out the average, you'll enjoy 1990s cameras. If you want street photography negatives that contain identical density, day after day and in all conditions, you shouldn't put your trust in automation.
 

markbarendt

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Because the camera is likely to be larger, heavier, and festooned with additional dials, buttons and superfluous information. The only variables necessary for making an exposure are shutter speed and aperture, and the capacity to wind on the film. Everything beyond that hands some aspect of your photography to a technical designer. That's okay if you want your photography to be a collaboration rather than a personal decision, but I don't trust electronic engineers or software designers to know how I want my negative to come out, and experience has shown I'm correct to entertain that suspicion.

Film photography can be as complicated or a simple as you want to make it. Most film packets still have Sunny 16 info, and with a little experience even that will give you consistently exposed negatives. If your idea of fun is setting exposure bracketing for 1/2 or 1/3 stop increments, or spot metering for five different areas and letting the camera work out the average, you'll enjoy 1990s cameras. If you want street photography negatives that contain identical density, day after day and in all conditions, you shouldn't put your trust in automation.

Yes, my F100 is larger and heavier than my old FM2 was, yep more controls too, but it is also much easier to hold and adjust (even in manual mode) because of it's shape and the placement of the controls. I don't have to reach up on top of the camera to find the time wheel (my fingers are already where they need to be), and I don't have to stroke the advance lever (my fingers stay where they belong).

It is also has a much better meter in every mode, whether I'm using that to set the camera before the shoot or during.

When I finish a roll it automatically rewinds, pop the door and I'm ready to switch cassettes. When I load the film I pull the end of the film to the red dot, shut the camera, and push the shutter button. I don't have to roll the take-up reel to find the slot, then get the film in the slot, then roll the take-up reel, then shut the camera, then crank through the first 2-3 frames.

If I decide to switch films, the camera can (but doesn't have to) automatically set the ISO, this is really cool because if I grabbed a roll of FP4 by mistake in the dark when I was trying to grab a roll of D3200, or the opposite in the middle of a sunny day, at least the meter will give me data that is indexed to the film in the camera. The FM2 (like many older cameras) doesn't even have a window to let me see what I have in the camera.

Photography has a long history of automating tasks. Sheet film replaced poured plates, so we no longer had to make our own film. Roll film allowed us to advance the film rather than flip the holder. Automatic shutters allowed us to get past using a hat or cap hung on the lens to control time. There are hundreds of examples of things that have been automated.

The argument for using a camera without automation is an arbitrary and subjective decision about where to draw the line in time.

Automation is a good thing, so is learning to use dark slides as a shutter, pouring your own plates, and making carbon tissue.

I don't sense that you are suggesting we pour our own plates.
 

mopar_guy

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Because the camera is likely to be larger, heavier, and festooned with additional dials, buttons and superfluous information. The only variables necessary for making an exposure are shutter speed and aperture, and the capacity to wind on the film. Everything beyond that hands some aspect of your photography to a technical designer. That's okay if you want your photography to be a collaboration rather than a personal decision, but I don't trust electronic engineers or software designers to know how I want my negative to come out, and experience has shown I'm correct to entertain that suspicion.

Film photography can be as complicated or a simple as you want to make it. Most film packets still have Sunny 16 info, and with a little experience even that will give you consistently exposed negatives. If your idea of fun is setting exposure bracketing for 1/2 or 1/3 stop increments, or spot metering for five different areas and letting the camera work out the average, you'll enjoy 1990s cameras. If you want street photography negatives that contain identical density, day after day and in all conditions, you shouldn't put your trust in automation.

I disagree strongly with this attitude. The camera is only a tool. Blaming the camera for my failure would just be silly. This is like saying "The Devil made me do it." The automatic features in cameras can be used or not used in any way that the photographer wants. Your theory is that my use of an in-camera meter is bad and I should just use "Sunny 16". You do not give the photographer any credit for controlling the features of the tool at his disposal.
 

BrianShaw

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... You do not give the photographer any credit for controlling the features of the tool at his disposal.

Nor is proper credit being given for the engineers and marketting people. They do not work in a vacuum. They work with people like us to determine what is value-added as well as determining what will sell.
 

blockend

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I don't sense that you are suggesting we pour our own plates.

That's up to the individual, and I welcome the return of historic processes like wet plate collodion for its unique look. I'm talking about the evolution of the miniature camera, specifically the 35mm SLR, from poor design and inappropriate materials, through various useful innovations, to overblown, indulgent, gimmick ridden plastic brick that was mostly about selling novelty in a saturated and jaded camera market.

Can you use such objects for making photographs? Of course. As a kid I had shoes with a compass in the heel, but they wouldn't be my first choice for finding my way home.
 

blockend

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I disagree strongly with this attitude. The camera is only a tool. Blaming the camera for my failure would just be silly. This is like saying "The Devil made me do it." The automatic features in cameras can be used or not used in any way that the photographer wants. Your theory is that my use of an in-camera meter is bad and I should just use "Sunny 16". You do not give the photographer any credit for controlling the features of the tool at his disposal.
I'm suggesting that photography is a simple medium made complicated with the aim of selling people more cameras. Would you teach a newcomer the basics using a Spotmatic or an EOS1v? I'm betting the Pentax (or any other match needle manual SLR) will tell them what they need to know more quickly, and focus their mind on taking consistently better photographs instead of learning optical computer programming.
 

mopar_guy

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I'm suggesting that photography is a simple medium made complicated with the aim of selling people more cameras. Would you teach a newcomer the basics using a Spotmatic or an EOS1v? I'm betting the Pentax (or any other match needle manual SLR) will tell them what they need to know more quickly, and focus their mind on taking consistently better photographs instead of learning optical computer programming.

That answer is a smoke screen and is evasive. Nobody stays a beginner forever. People are capable of learning to use modern cameras and obtaining great results.
 

pdeeh

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there's a lot of straw men in this thread
 

blockend

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That answer is a smoke screen and is evasive. Nobody stays a beginner forever. People are capable of learning to use modern cameras and obtaining great results.
Nobody has questioned that. By the same token Ansel Adams and Gary Winogrand shot some of the finest landscapes and street photographs without even a light meter in their cameras.
 

mopar_guy

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Nobody has questioned that. By the same token Ansel Adams and Gary Winogrand shot some of the finest landscapes and street photographs without even a light meter in their cameras.

Agreed, and Press photographers used to use Speed Graphics and flash bulbs. Ansel Adams would have been hard pressed to cover a Sporting event with his view camera.
 

blockend

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Agreed, and Press photographers used to use Speed Graphics and flash bulbs. Ansel Adams would have been hard pressed to cover a Sporting event with his view camera.
True, although they were used for such events in their day. You could make a fair argument that sports photography (fast follow autofocus, high shutter speeds, autowind, etc) dominated the design of SLRs in their last twenty years and continues to influence DSLR thinking to the exclusion other priorities. Those wanting a more targeted camera were forced to look elsewhere.

The question that might be asked is what advantage do readers of this forum believe film offers over digital photography. Whatever the answer, I doubt it involves more automation in the equation.
 

blockend

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To add one more point, I just came back from walking the dog over the hills taking photographs on one of the latest mirrorless digital cameras. It finally succeeded in the promise that has been hyped for the last twenty years, of taking sharp, well saturated, grain free images at silly ISOs. I manually set the aperture and shutter speed, put the ISO on auto and keeping a thumb ready on the exposure comp dial, allow the camera to do its thing. No more choosing to freeze the action or get depth of field, I can have both, with no IQ compromises. Great for sports!

On the other hand sharp images of peerless image quality are only a small part of my photography. Feel, mood, process are more important, which is why film makes up most of my image making.
 

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True, although they were used for such events in their day. You could make a fair argument that sports photography (fast follow autofocus, high shutter speeds, autowind, etc) dominated the design of SLRs in their last twenty years and continues to influence DSLR thinking to the exclusion other priorities. Those wanting a more targeted camera were forced to look elsewhere.

The question that might be asked is what advantage do readers of this forum believe film offers over digital photography. Whatever the answer, I doubt it involves more automation in the equation.

This thread title does not seem to be - is automation is good or bad or is film camera automation good or bad,

But
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Thread: Is using the camera in manual that difficult.
=====

No is it is not difficult, you preset the camera in the coffee shop like it was a Box Brownie, (though it may be more difficult doing that with a F5 or Dcamera,) and change it when the light changes or you need to prefocus to a different range.

But

If you have an attention problem or are clumsy then any film camera is going to be harder work than a Dcamera. Some people cannot load a Barnack easily, or a spiral tank reel... Memory cards are easier.

Last summer some of the photo shops organized a photo shoot long weekend, loaning a 35mm manual camera, for a quick spin around the block, a free film - FP4+, and when camera was returned, developed and contacted printed, enlarged the best one and stuck it on the wall. They had some nice cameras, like a Praktica LTL.

It was so popular for intervals they had a queue of people waiting for a camera to be returned.

And some of the hung shots were good although the shooters had had the film loaded and the wind on lever explained, and the exposure meter etc. just before they were pushed out on the street. So many people can use a manual camera easily, but a % may need an auto DSLR to be enabled.

The camera does not take the photographs...
 

Chris Lange

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This discussion should have ended after 3 simple replies that everyone could agree upon:

Is a using a camera in manual that difficult?

1: No.

2. No, if you know what you're doing.

3. Yes, if you don't understand what the relationship between meter/estimate of EV, settings on the camera, and desired aesthetic is.

I love my M2, I love my Hasselblads, I love my auto-capable F3/F4s, and I love my Contax T2 and Olympus stylus. Whatever.
 

blockend

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Most people pick up the idea of exposing film correctly in a couple of weeks. A few do not, and SLR design evolved to accommodate them. It also changed to allow people with very specific needs to fulfil those needs. Then it evolved to let people who just like fooling round with cameras to have fun doing so. After that it grew to do all of the above while it was raining, at 10 fps, while shooting flash. Some people believe this is A Thoroughly Good Thing. Other people think it has little to do with photography.

If you're in the good thing camp, you'll love modern DSLRs. You could spend a day playing with the thousands of combinations without troubling to get out the house to take a shot.
 

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Suggest you are on the wrong fora this is APUG.

The OP had a query you are not acknowledging are you a politician for a living?

Is it difficult to use a manual camera?
 

blockend

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Suggest you are on the wrong fora this is APUG.

The OP had a query you are not acknowledging are you a politician for a living?

Is it difficult to use a manual camera?
Explain with examples. Everything I've said is pertinent to the ease of using a manual camera, and the absurd attempts manufacturers went to to 're-imagine' it was difficult.
 

BrianShaw

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... and the absurd attempts manufacturers went to to 're-imagine' it was difficult.

Are you sure that what you write is a true statement of the design intent for camera automation?
 

blockend

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Are you sure that what you write is a true statement of the design intent for camera automation?
The intent of camera manufacturers is to sell more cameras, by whatever means necessary. Is technical innovation a good idea? Sometimes, but by the 1990s SLR design was lead by gimmickry, in my humble opinion. Remember the (Minolta?) system for which you had to purchase different cards for various modes? Some people get off on that kind of thing, and it certainly keeps manufacturers in business, though it clearly wasn't enough to save Minolta from Canon-Nikon market domination.

What the resurgence of film photography among younger people illustrates, is that simple tools (whoever thought the Zenit would become a cult classic?) are perfectly usable, and are often preferred for their simplicity. They may not be the choice of the people who are disagreeing with my premise, but the popularity of solid, even primitive SLR cameras has not restricted the creative vision of newcomers, and probably never did. Those limitations were in their own head, and manufacturers pandered to the gap with new tricks.
 

BrianShaw

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... but the popularity of solid, even primitive SLR cameras has not restricted the creative vision of newcomers, and probably never did. ...

Nor has the increase in camera automation restricted the creative vision of either newcomers or old-tymers, and probably never will.
 

blockend

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Nor has the increase in camera automation restricted the creative vision of either newcomers or old-tymers, and probably never will.
You may, or may not be missing my point. If you can do everything you need to do with a simple, well made manual camera, what was the last twenty years of camera 'innovation' except a huge marketing exercise? Leica users (of whom I'm not a member) always insisted it was all a side show to the business of making pictures.
 

blockend

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If you can write a novel with a typewriter, or a pen, why bother with a laptop?

Oh dear...
Yup, however did Shakespeare manage without a word processor and a spell check? Actually, quite a few successful modern novelists write with a pen and paper. Are they mad?
 

cliveh

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If you can write a novel with a typewriter, or a pen, why bother with a laptop?

Oh dear...

The analogy of writing a novel using a laptop is quite a good one. Just like camera automation it may change the speed at which you complete the task and the volume of the outcome, but makes no difference to the creative input.
 
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