Is this developing method correct?

[ath]

Remember that T-Grain films required longer fixing times. I fix Tmax films with the two-bath method for 3 minutes each. A 2-minute fixing bath seems too short to me.

Ralph, he is talking about Adox CMS20 which is an Agfa document film with very thin emulsion. It fixes in seconds. 2 minutes in film strength fixer is too much for this film. This is covered in the datasheet for this film.

 

[ath]

Personally I like to use a wash based on the Ilford method, but extended (read: added safety margin).
The benefits for me are: water is always at correct temperature (i prepare a 5l canister which is stored at RT and ready to go) and it provides process control.

 

[mingaun]

Andreas what do you mean by extended method? How is it done?

 

[ath]

Andreas what do you mean by extended method? How is it done?

see my pn for my process.

 

[RalphLambrecht]

... but doing so with the assertion of a manufacturer recommended method being insufficient sounds a bit pretestuous to me. ...

Who said it's insufficient? I question the benefit, and with all the testing I've done and all the literature I've read on the subject, I've earned the right of being a bit critical with manufacturer recommendations, especially if they are 30+ years old!

... I generally stick to 6, with 2 inversions every 30s.

This boggles my mind. I don't understand why people stress the point of saving water by using the Ilford washing sequence, but on the other hand, they waste (and dump) so much chemicals by still using the inversion method. Rotation processing uses a fraction of the chemicals and can be done with or without a development machine in existing development tanks. Good for the wallet and the environment!

We can't save in water what we're wasting in chemicals.

 

[RalphLambrecht]

Editing my post because misunderstood your statement.

Ralph can i just wash with water at 28C for 2min right after fixing which was done at 20C, then followed by a hypo wash for 2min also at 28C and then a final wash in water at 28C for 10minutes. And if i understood you correctly i just use my fingers and need not use a wetting agent?

No, I wouldn't recommend it then. I recommend to keep the entire process at one temperature, or at least, not deviate more than 2-3C. I do not recommend to skip HCA.

 

[RalphLambrecht]

And the fact that a lot of us have water meters so it costs money to keep the tap running.


Steve.

Steve

I thought we did it for the environment, but let's consider the financial facts. I'm on a meter too. The price is $3 per m^3. That makes about 1¢ per gallon. Worth talking about it?

 

[RalphLambrecht]

Ralph, he is talking about Adox CMS20 which is an Agfa document film with very thin emulsion. It fixes in seconds. 2 minutes in film strength fixer is too much for this film. This is covered in the datasheet for this film.

Good point! Thanks for pointing it out.

 

[mingaun]

No, I wouldn't recommend it then. I recommend to keep the entire process at one temperature, or at least, not deviate more than 2-3C. I do not recommend to skip HCA.

Ok. I will go with the HCA. I guess at the end i still have to use ilford method only because i need to keep the temperature constant. But one day i might just try washing at 28C to see if it will damage the emulsion.

 

[RalphLambrecht]

... I guess at the end i still have to use ilford method only because i need to keep the temperature constant. ...

That's what ath also mentioned as a benefit of the Ilford method. Makes sense in that case.

 

[Steve Smith]

I thought we did it for the environment, but let's consider the financial facts. I'm on a meter too. The price is $3 per m^3. That makes about 1¢ per gallon. Worth talking about it?

You are totally correct .... but people don't think that way.


Steve.

 

[mingaun]

Its done!! I am writing this at past midnight and i have managed to develop my first film and what an incredible feeling. Seeing the developed negatives gave me an emotional surge that almost brought tears to my eyes. One things for sure, i never experienced this in digital. Oh what joy i am feeling inside me.

THANK YOU ALL!!! Without your advise i could not have done it. I owe it all to you guys.

I was sweating all the way, and kept throwing in ice cubes to keep the temperature at 20C. I forgot to even tap the bottom of the tank to release the captured air but glad it turn out well. Looking at the negatives, i feel it was developed well but i am no expert. Now still awaiting my scanner to arrive and will definitely post some pictures.

In the end i developed all at 20C, fix for two minutes, wash with hypowash for five minutes and wash with an extended ilford method as advise by a fellow member (10,12,12,24,24), then used a wetting agent (decided to use it because i already bought it).

Now i am going to have a good sleep, need to wake up early for work the next day. Geez...feels like a kid again! Great fun and what a day.

 

[RalphLambrecht]

Yes, that's the magic of analog photography! Well done.

 

[MattKing]

I'll repeat after Ralph - well done!

By the way, if you are going to be adjusting the temperature down from room temperature, you can use other targets. Most manufacturers will have recommendations for temperatures higher than 20C (e.g. 24C).

 

[mingaun]

I have just received my scanner and as promised here are some pictures i took from my first two rolls of film and i am quite pleased with it. Hardly any post production, straight scan and no sharpening. Quality has been downsized for web use.

These are pictures taken from a train station in Kuala Lumpur

And these are my second roll of film taken at a trip to Bako National Park in Borneo

Hope you all will like the images. All constructive criticisms are most welcome.

 

[RalphLambrecht]

Now we need to find out where these vertical streaks come from.

 

[mingaun]

I have also been cracking my head on it. Hoping some of you could help me. Is it a scanner thing? or is it my agitation not adequate?

 

[pentaxuser]

mingaun, just out of interest what made you chose Adox CMS 20? I suppose you have got the light conditions where a speed rating of 20 doesn't matter for scenes where movement is either slow or non existent but as you are starting out with film then maybe this film isn't the most forgiving to have tried first.

We must have several users of this film here on APUG. I wonder what their experience of streaks are?

Let us know if you will of your experiences. It may help mingaun to make up his mind about whether to stick with CMS 20 or move on to another film.

I don't think we'll ever get to a consensus on the Ilford wash method which at 5,10 and 20 inversions only, does seem a little risky. On the other hand it was said to have been devised in the very dry year of 1976 so its now 35 years old. If Ilford had any doubts about publishing its washing sequence then by now I would have thought that Ilford's "chickens would be coming home to roost" giving Ilford real problems trying to explain why most of its films developed in the late 70s were exhibiting residual fixer problems. There seems no sign of this problem. Is it one still waiting to happen?

I doubt it and hope not since if it is then Ilford's problems with a few disgruntled U.K and european customers over its alleged pricing policy will be nothing compared to what is about to hit it.

pentaxuser

 

[mingaun]

Actually I came from a pure digital background. I stumbled across Adox CMS 20 when reading Erwin Puts article. He was singing a lot of praises for this film and I never thought I could get such high resolution from a 35mm negative. Coupled with a lust for things leica I decided to make the change to film. Most of my final product is produce in a photo book at 13 by 11 inches. All I want is a nice clean and sharp image in my photo book and occasionally if the shot was really good I would get someone to print it real big for me which rarely happens.

I don't actually know what to do at this point. I have to admit that at ASA 20 I have struggled a lot. Miss a lot of family snap shots. Some of them are very contrasty. I like contrast but some can get real nasty. I am so new to film. Not sure what is this document vs pictorial film all about. But is there a high resolution film that is suitable for my needs and has beautiful tone production especially for people shots and some occasional landscape.

 

[pentaxuser]

mingaun, have a search here on APUG for CMS 20 film. Quite a lot has been written about it. It might help you to decide whether you want to stay with it or not.

Clearly there are definite issues with speed at 20 even at your location and I am sure there are more forgiving films to try. TMax 400 is said to be a very fine grain film with none of the problems said to be associated with CMS 20 and I'd have thought that with Leica lenses a 11x13 print was just about possible without much loss of resolution.

Once you are more experienced with film processing then you can always give CMS 20 another try

pentaxuser

 

[Leigh B]

Increasing fixing time, within reason, shouldn't be a problem. Better if you learn to learn to read your film. After a couple of minutes of fixing, you can take a brief look at your film. If you see anything that looks cloudy, then put the cover back on and fix for another minute. The edges of the film should be clear except for base fog. Different films will look different when cleared. Also after storing your film, if you see your film changing colour over time, you can always put the film back in the fixer. Return the strips onto the reel, soak the reel in water to soften the emulsion, and fix for a couple more minutes. You will still have to hypo, wash, and rinse as before.

Of course, if you fix the film properly in the first place you don't need to worry about this nonsense.

If you do choose to fix by "inspection" for some reason, the film should be left in the fixer for twice the time required to clear it completely.

- Leigh

 

[mingaun]

Like other document films, you must expose shadows low on the toe, yielding typically lousy shadow detail, because if you expose them any higher (as we normally try to do with pictorial films), you have no space on the curve for highlights, which block up very quickly, regardless of developer and development technique.

Hi Michael, i am a film newbie. I am actually quite satisfied with the landscape shots i took. Some people shots were not so nice but some are very nice. I am struggling to understand your above statement. Is it possible for you to explain to me in layman terms. Hopefully the above is not layman language

I need to get all this film settled quickly because this August i am making a trip to the Canadian Rockies and i cannot try a new film there. At this point in time my film strategy is to bring Adox CMS 20 for black and white and one of the new Portra's for color.

How are your people shots with the Adox?

Thanks

 

[pentaxuser]

I don't live in the Canadian Rockies and have no idea how good the light is in August but I'd have thought that the lack of speed in CMS 20 would have restricted your shots.

You have at least 9 weeks to go before your trip in August. I'd have thought that this is long enough to test another film like TMax 400 before you need to use it in the Rockies.

However you must do what you think is best.

pentaxuser

 

[MattKing]

The Canadian Rockies will most likely present a very wide variety of lighting and subject conditions, including a number of high contrast photo opportunities. I wouldn't suggest a document film like CMS20 for a trip like that.

For a trip like this, you want film that is flexible and adaptable. Document films are tailored to particular circumstances (they have a curve with a short toe, short straight portion and abrupt shoulder), and a photographer needs a lot of skill and experience and knowledge of his/her materials to make them work well in other circumstances.

If fine grain is particularly important to you, I'd suggest T-Max 100 (TMX) and T-Max 400 (TMY2). If, as a newby, you want more room for error, you may want to try Plus-X and Tri-X. There are excellent Ilford examples as well.

 

[mingaun]

Thank you all for your comments and help. Now it's clear to me at least why most of you are discouraging me from using Adox CMS 20.

I am willing to give Tmax 100 a go. Problem is when I read the Internet I get so many suggestion on which developer to use. With Adox it was straightforward because I just use the recommended developer.

Can someone here advise me the best developer to use for tmax 100. And also can I develop the film using all the steps that I use for the Adox film with only changes to the development time. That means the time for the fix,stop bath etc all remains the same.