Is this cheating?

Mainecoonmaniac · Oct 23, 2013

This is just a thought now. I'm wondering if it would be useful to use an image printed on OHP film to make contrast masks for enlarging. The the old days, it was very labor intensive. I imagine the work flow would be scanning the negative doing some adjustments in Photoshop, blurring the image then print in OHP. Does this thread belong in the Hybrid photo forum? Be nice to me if this post is a faux pas

Mainecoonmaniac · Oct 23, 2013

Wow Alan Ross uses this technique? He's quite a printer. Seen his prints at the Ansel Adams gallery in Yosemite. Never though of using magentas and yellows. Genius. Split grade printing and masking all in one!

Mustafa Umut Sarac · Oct 23, 2013

Come on , Cheat us as much as you want , making better art is more important.

Rick A · Oct 23, 2013

Utilizing the tools you have at hand is not (technically)cheating, merely finding a workflow that allows you to accomplish what you need.If the internegative films were still readily available, you would probably still want to use a computer scan and print out a mask, far more convenient.

Bob Carnie · Oct 23, 2013

This hybrid approach has never been appreciated here, not to mention many other methods of imaging to wet prints that involve a computer.
I will be interested to see how this thread goes.

Rick A · Oct 23, 2013

As opposed as I am to digitalizing, I must weigh in toward being practical. The expense and labor involved in making internegs and masking the way we used to do it, was daunting to say the least. If you can do it with modern technology, have at it. The end result is what matters here, a wet print that reaches out and leaves ya gobsmacked.

Thomas Bertilsson · Oct 23, 2013

If you don't mind doing it, it's kind of silly not to take advantage of technology.

It's too bad that I dislike sitting in front of a computer so much.

Mainecoonmaniac · Oct 23, 2013

I don't feel so bad now. It's good to hear that APUGers are really pragmatic. Thanks Mustafa, Thomas and Rick. I hate sitting in front of a computer for prolong periods too. It already my day job.

removed account4 · Oct 23, 2013

you can do it all you want, but i wouldn't post images in the gallery made from this technique
you'll have people rallying with pitchforks and torches ...

Regular Rod · Oct 23, 2013

Mainecoonmaniac said:
This is just a thought now. I'm wondering if it would be useful to use an image printed on OHP film to make contrast masks for enlarging. The the old days, it was very labor intensive. I imagine the work flow would be scanning the negative doing some adjustments in Photoshop, blurring the image then print in OHP. Does this thread belong in the Hybrid photo forum? Be nice to me if this post is a faux pas

Nothing is cheating. The end result is all that matters.

RR

Mustafa Umut Sarac · Oct 23, 2013

but it's all analog

Nobody will reward you with Nobel Photography Award. If he does accomplish a great print , it is done. As Romans says Finish rewards the job.

Thomas Bertilsson · Oct 23, 2013

I think many here have interests in both digital and analog techniques, and not one exclusively over the other.

Anyway, if anybody asks technically how a digital mask is done, I'd be upset with the disrespect for the forum.
But if someone asks whether it's cheating or not, I think it's applicable. Virtually the same results can be made using darkroom ways. But it'll take longer, and some (like me) would take more pleasure from it.

It's easy to get on the bandwagon of taking the easy way out. My goal is to be satisfied with my efforts, and often 'easy' doesn't apply - only how good I feel about the print.

Klainmeister · Oct 23, 2013

Some tools are great an new. This being one. That, and my lord digi-negs are nice!

ParkerSmithPhoto · Oct 23, 2013

In the Lustrum Press "Darkroom" book, Emmet Gowin shows how he uses an acetate mask to do much the same thing you are describing.

I think any tool you can use to make your art more effective is almost mandatory. We all have limited time on the planet, and even less time to devote to our art.

As Rush sang in "The Spirit of Radio":

All this machinery making modern music
Can still be open-hearted.
Not so coldly charted, it's really just a question
Of your honesty, yeah, your honesty.

And, if I'm being honest, I think DigiNegs should be just another forum on APUG, not banished to it's own poorly trafficked website. Seriously, what has done more to revive platinum and alt-processes than digital negatives?

Bob Carnie · Oct 23, 2013

plus 1

Neil can make some great lyrics.

I have the Darkroom2 book where EG shows quite clearly the way to do this,, having a large negative helps.

ParkerSmithPhoto said:
In the Lustrum Press "Darkroom" book, Emmet Gowin shows how he uses an acetate mask to do much the same thing you are describing.

I think any tool you can use to make your art more effective is almost mandatory. We all have limited time on the planet, and even less time to devote to our art.

As Rush sang in "The Spirit of Radio":

All this machinery making modern music
Can still be open-hearted.
Not so coldly charted, it's really just a question
Of your honesty, yeah, your honesty.

And, if I'm being honest, I think DigiNegs should be just another forum on APUG, not banished to it's own poorly trafficked website. Seriously, what has done more to revive platinum and alt-processes than digital negatives?

Klainmeister · Oct 23, 2013

ParkerSmithPhoto said:
And, if I'm being honest, I think DigiNegs should be just another forum on APUG, not banished to it's own poorly trafficked website. Seriously, what has done more to revive platinum and alt-processes than digital negatives?

Well said. The transparency material is one of the highest selling items on our shelves. I bet a lot of people on here have great Alt. Process stuff that they can't show. I know I have tons and new stuff we're working on all the time, but we can't go there.

Anyways, back on topic.

I once used a transparency and a sharpy and hand drew some dodge areas that were very fine and difficult and it worked great! Use what you got. If I have learned anything from watching the art market here in town, it's that %90 of people could give two craps less about how you got there in the image, but rather that the image is great to begin with.

eddie · Oct 23, 2013

It's not cheating, but it is beyond the scope of this site. If everyone who complained about APUG's digital policies would go to the hybrid site, it would become more vibrant. This is the last bastion for the entirely analog workflow. Any deviation would start it down a slippery slope.

removed account4 · Oct 23, 2013

SNIP SNIP

ParkerSmithPhoto said:
And, if I'm being honest, I think DigiNegs should be just another forum on APUG, not banished to it's own poorly trafficked website. Seriously, what has done more to revive platinum and alt-processes than digital negatives?

i agree, but the alternative that existed here called the grey area caused lots of trouble within the membership of this website.
im not sure if you are able to read any of the long winded and venomous threads from that time period but it was not a lot of fun.
and as you might read when someone posts questions about "are slide or negative scans allowed in the gallery" the troops are rallied
to try to create an all print scan gallery where people who may scan film or slides are almost given 2nd class status because
their work isn't "pure" ... i'm sure if there was some sort of a way to integrate the 2 sites sean would try to do it giving the hybrid people
a way to be part of apug and visaversa because at a certain level they both need eachother ...

Patrick Robert James · Oct 23, 2013

I have done it before, but it takes too long and requires planning (i.e. I have to leave the darkroom). I find a sheet of frosted mylar and a pencil is a lot faster and more malleable. Just my 2¢.

jstraw · Oct 23, 2013

Patrick Robert James said:
I have done it before, but it takes too long and requires planning (i.e. I have to leave the darkroom). I find a sheet of frosted mylar and a pencil is a lot faster and more malleable. Just my 2¢.

I'd like to hear more about *this*.

ishutteratthethought · Oct 23, 2013

APUG is what it is, an oasis for traditional photography. I too have no problem whatsoever with utilizing technologies to attain images. The websites are a million to 1 for digital/hybrid images vs analogue.
APUG is hear to keep it traditional, that's all.

DREW WILEY · Oct 23, 2013

Whatever is fun for you. But just remember that there's a reason so many options in Fauxtoshop are named for graphics arts precedents.
With a bit of soft pencil and a bit of red creosin dye you can do a helluva lot of things faster than using a scan with computer futzing - and at
vastly less expense. I do all kinds of analog masking, esp for color work, most of it punch-and-register film techniques. But that Alan Ross low-tech approach will give you a lot of mileage in basic black and white control. I happen to enjoy true darkroom masking work. But it can really
improve prints too.

jp498 · Oct 23, 2013

Call me a heretic.. I took my laptop (a Chromebook) in to the mostly darkroom the other night for company while I developed film. It made my time there more enjoyable. I already use digital timers (kitchen timer and Gralab digital timer), so I'm not righteous under analog purity law.

MaximusM3 · Oct 23, 2013

ParkerSmithPhoto said:
In the Lustrum Press "Darkroom" book, Emmet Gowin shows how he uses an acetate mask to do much the same thing you are describing.

I think any tool you can use to make your art more effective is almost mandatory. We all have limited time on the planet, and even less time to devote to our art.

As Rush sang in "The Spirit of Radio":

All this machinery making modern music
Can still be open-hearted.
Not so coldly charted, it's really just a question
Of your honesty, yeah, your honesty.

And, if I'm being honest, I think DigiNegs should be just another forum on APUG, not banished to it's own poorly trafficked website. Seriously, what has done more to revive platinum and alt-processes than digital negatives?

Amen! And of course, Rush rules and Neil is always right!

jstraw · Oct 23, 2013

Michael R 1974 said:
Again, see Alan Ross's "Selective Masking" techniques. Step by step how-to for pencil shading mylar (he uses Dura-Lar), how to make a DIY carrier for this stuff etc. He uses these techniques to help him print all the authorized Ansel Adams reproduction prints.

The basic techniques are non-digital so perfectly ok for discussion here (pencil shading etc.). He then moves on to the digital transparency methods raised by OP.

http://www.alanrossphotography.com/2010/08/selective-masking-printing-negatives/

Thanks!

Is this cheating?

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