Is there really a strong interest in film photography?

[Sirius Glass]

There's truth in what you say. What we do is add on a few days before or after the cruise. So when we cruised Alaska, we stayed an additional three days in a Vancouver hotel renting a car sightseeing up to the ski resort, Vancouver Island, Burkart Gardens, and Victoria. When we cruised down from Quebec CIty, we flew up there a day or two early and stayed in the grand hotel Le Chateau Frontenac up there eating the best French dinner I ever had as well as touring the area by rental car. You have to be flexible and think out of the box. Just add a stay for a few days at the port of departure for the ship.
https://www.booking.com/hotel/ca/fairmont-chateau-frontenac.html?label=msn-Ejb3n8EWRJZxqjzDCHEgtA-80126981401676:tidat-2331926723608638:aud-808219487:loc-190:neo:mtb:lp163234:dec:qsquebec+city+best+hotel&utm_source=bing&utm_medium=cpc&utm_term=Ejb3n8EWRJZxqjzDCHEgtA&utm_campaign=English_United_States+EN+US&aid=1181029&ucfs=1&arphpl=1&dest_id=-571851&dest_type=city&group_adults=2&req_adults=2&no_rooms=1&group_children=0&req_children=0&hpos=4&hapos=4&sr_order=popularity&srpvid=1d268b86b49300fd&srepoch=1670788237&from_sustainable_property_sr=1&from=searchresults#hotelTmpl

Montreal, Quebec, and eastern Canada I think can be easily toured by automobile and therefore not cruise worthy. One could enjoy the Caribbean island better by air than a cruise ship, just as the Greek island. On the other hand Antarctica would make a much better cruise than auto tour.

 

[Sirius Glass]

Well, at least you wouldn't get Legionnaire's disease.

That is one downside to cruising. Disease can be spread easily. Of course, you could do what newlyweds do on a honeymoon. Lock yourselves in your cabin and have them deliver your meals.

Norovirus is one of the big advantages of cruises. If one wants norovirus then a cruise it that go to location.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

Montreal, Quebec, and eastern Canada I think can be easily toured by automobile and therefore not cruise worthy. One could enjoy the Caribbean island better by air than a cruise ship, just as the Greek island. On the other hand Antarctica would make a much better cruise than auto tour.

You need the time to drive. My Canada cruise would have run about 2500 miles if driven

 

[Sirius Glass]

You need the time to drive. My Canada cruise would have run about 2500 miles if driven

But it only looks like 8" in the map and you are retired, so you have the time.

 

[MattKing]

It has been an interesting (??) diversion from the subject of the thread, but can everyone please "travel" back to the subject of current interest in film photography.

 

[Pieter12]

My onion is based on anecdotal evidence, for sure. For the last 40 years of my working career, I have been involved in photography. Aside form working with a multitude of commercial photographers, I freelanced for one of the major camera stores in Los Angeles. Agfa Motion Picture film was an agency client account I worked on. I have seen the heyday of film, with one-hour photo labs on practically every block, many labs catering to professionals and camera stores and equipment rental houses who gradually shuttered their doors. There used to be rows upon rows of carded 35mm film in every drug store and convenience store, supermarket, news stands (remember those?) and department stores. Big camera stores had multiple refrigerators stocked to the gills with film. Professional photographers would carefully buy blocks of film from the same emulsion batch to ensure consistency for a shoot. Where is that now? Kodak may have to hire more workers and open another shift, but there is a shortage of skilled workers today in the U.S. and jobs go begging. I have attended classes to brush up my darkroom skills at the local community college with a burgeoning photo department, but they have been on the verge of closing their darkroom a number of times. The last film class I attended started with 15 or 20 students and at the last class there were 3 or 4 who remained making final presentations. What its your opinion based on?

 

[Craig]

I think you've missed the point of the thread. Nobody has said that film usage and productions volumes will ever return to 1990's levels, but rather after many pretty much thought film was dead after 2008-2009, the volumes are recovering from that low and are showing healthy increases in sales, particularly in the last 5 years. Major players like Ilford are able to manufacture film and related products at a profit, and that wasn't predicted 15 years ago.

So rather than certain extinction, film photography seems to have a bright, and more importantly, sustainable future ahead.

 

[KerrKid]

Try to find Kodak Gold 200. Or even the Fuji equivalent. Someone sure is shooting a lot of it.

 

[Agulliver]

I think you've missed the point of the thread. Nobody has said that film usage and productions volumes will ever return to 1990's levels, but rather after many pretty much thought film was dead after 2008-2009, the volumes are recovering from that low and are showing healthy increases in sales, particularly in the last 5 years. Major players like Ilford are able to manufacture film and related products at a profit, and that wasn't predicted 15 years ago.

So rather than certain extinction, film photography seems to have a bright, and more importantly, sustainable future ahead.

Exactly this. Nobody, not one single person, is predicting or even hoping that film usage will ever again reach 1990s levels. What is being said is that after the near total collapse of the market, it then stabilised and for the last few years has unexpectedly seen sustained and quite rapid growth to the point where the remaining manufacturers cannot keep up with demand for film. There appears to be no one single driving factor and it's already been sustained for five years or so....so this notion that there is some brief fad would seem to be quite serious pessimism. It's already gone further than a fad by lasting five years.

 

[VinceInMT]

Same reason we still warm up valve amps on a Sunday morning and play Coltrane on vinyl …… there’s pleasure in the process and the tactile nature of the equipment as well at the audio output ………..

As we’ve discussed on other threads, it’s the process that attracts many to film and, likely, keeps some of us involved in it. While the digital world provides its own seemingly endless range of features, particularly in post-processing, film itself has many avenues to explore. After all, we do have an alternative processes forum here which provides lots of options for the curious.

It is interesting how things that were popular at one time decline over time, replaced by either innovations or lack of interest. As an example, I’d bring up the world of music. A few generations ago, it was very common for families to have a musical instrument in the house, especially a piano. Popular music rankings were based, in part, on sheet music sales, a product that has been in decline. A piano was an expensive addition to a home and now, pianos and, especially, organs, are giving away for free on CraigsList and other marketplaces. While certainly anecdotal, when growing up (and I lived in several states doing so) most kids I knew took some kind of music lessons. I took a very informal poll of those in my current running club and found several who did music as a kid but no one who plays currently. Full disclosure: I took years of piano lessons as a kid, still have a piano that I play on occasion, but in my mid-teens I switched to guitar which I still play.

Anyway, I guess my point is that the popularity of things can ebb and flow for a variety of factors including technology and marketing, not to mention the impact of ”influencers.” After all, who knew that body art would become a thing like it is now?

In the meantime, I’m headed out to beat the big snowstorm and shoot some expired Tri-X and drop it in some Caffenol.

 

[kal800]

So rather than certain extinction, film photography seems to have a bright, and more importantly, sustainable future ahead.

We just need new medium format cameras and large format lenses. That's completely incomprehensible for me, that Schneider, Nikon and Rodenstock have discontinued their LF lenses when there are so many new cameras available - Intrepid, Toyo, Linhof, Wista, Cambo, Chamonix, and maybe more...

 

[Helge]

Perhaps this is true if one is creating an in-depth analysis of societal and market trends.
But I don't think we are set up well for that here.
We are better set up for functioning as a clearing house for the personal and anecdotal. Given the international flavour of Photrio, we might actually be particularly well suited for that clearing house role.

Pieter just seems to not take into account all the evidence and accumulated personal stories
Instead sticking to his “it’s a fad” line.
Well, anything is a fad if you wait long enough. This fad has been going for seven years at least, through economic trouble, a pandemic and big changes in the digital market.

I have no problem with someone sharing their pessimistic outlook, plus their concern about how some of the positive information seen elsewhere seems high in enthusiasm but low in data.
That is part of the clearing house.

But there is plenty of data and accumulated personal anecdotes, as well as there admittedly being some people enthusiastic just because they want to.
I don’t see the big difference between groundless pessimism and groundless enthusiasm.
Both are ultimately nugatory, with pessimism in this case possibly being potentially damaging to the field in the long run.

The “doom and gloom” sub forum was AFAIK set up for exactly this?

But donning the moderator's hat for a moment, I would say that we don't favour members criticizing other members for holding a differing opinion. You can however feel free to challenge the substance of that differing opinion, and to state the reasons why your opinion differs.
Moderator's hat off again.

I have done exactly that multiple times. Others has as well. It’s as if what we are saying doesn’t really seem to register.
It’s not the opinion per se I have something against.
It’s the robot like insistence on the same needlessly pessimistic message again and again, without being interested in elaborating, discussion or conversation.

 

[Helge]

As we’ve discussed on other threads, it’s the process that attracts many to film and, likely, keeps some of us involved in it. While the digital world provides its own seemingly endless range of features, particularly in post-processing, film itself has many avenues to explore. After all, we do have an alternative processes forum here which provides lots of options for the curious.

Here is a thought to save yourself some money.
Just shoot the same roll over and over. Develop it dry it and reload it.

If you insist on photos, just snap a photo of the subject with your phone just after you’ve done the process thing with the film camera.

If you need some darkroom process too then just print your best phone shots as negatives on transparencies.
Or better yet just inkjet print the photo and go through the motions of the process, with the print on the easel.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

We just need new medium format cameras and large format lenses. That's completely incomprehensible for me, that Schneider, Nikon and Rodenstock have discontinued their LF lenses when there are so many new cameras available - Intrepid, Toyo, Linhof, Wista, Cambo, Chamonix, and maybe more...

The cost to produce new might not compete with pricing for old.

 

[Sirius Glass]

As we’ve discussed on other threads, it’s the process that attracts many to film and, likely, keeps some of us involved in it. While the digital world provides its own seemingly endless range of features, particularly in post-processing, film itself has many avenues to explore. After all, we do have an alternative processes forum here which provides lots of options for the curious.

It is interesting how things that were popular at one time decline over time, replaced by either innovations or lack of interest. As an example, I’d bring up the world of music. A few generations ago, it was very common for families to have a musical instrument in the house, especially a piano. Popular music rankings were based, in part, on sheet music sales, a product that has been in decline. A piano was an expensive addition to a home and now, pianos and, especially, organs, are giving away for free on CraigsList and other marketplaces. While certainly anecdotal, when growing up (and I lived in several states doing so) most kids I knew took some kind of music lessons. I took a very informal poll of those in my current running club and found several who did music as a kid but no one who plays currently. Full disclosure: I took years of piano lessons as a kid, still have a piano that I play on occasion, but in my mid-teens I switched to guitar which I still play.

Anyway, I guess my point is that the popularity of things can ebb and flow for a variety of factors including technology and marketing, not to mention the impact of ”influencers.” After all, who knew that body art would become a thing like it is now?

In the meantime, I’m headed out to beat the big snowstorm and shoot some expired Tri-X and drop it in some Caffenol.

Electronic keyboards are much less expensive than pianos and organs and they do not have to be tuned when they are moved or for seasonal changes.

 

[kal800]

Electronic keyboards are much less expensive than pianos and organs

Being only an imitation of acoustic real instruments. That's what is all about digital stuff - to imitate real things at lower cost.

 

[koraks]

It’s as if what we are saying doesn’t really seem to register.

Sometimes you can't convince a person, even if you feel you're giving good arguments. At that point, let it go. I say that as a moderator and that's also why both Matt and I intervened earlier. At some point it's no longer a constructive discussion and that's the point where we step in as mods. Beyond this point, it just gets nasty and that's not what this forum is for.

Please note: this is not a notion I'm putting up for debate. It's the final polite admonition to drop it.

 

[Craig]

We just need new medium format cameras and large format lenses. That's completely incomprehensible for me, that Schneider, Nikon and Rodenstock have discontinued their LF lenses when there are so many new cameras available - Intrepid, Toyo, Linhof, Wista, Cambo, Chamonix, and maybe more...

If I recall ( and I may be wrong about the source) the latest Ilford survey of film users was showing that supply of medium and large format equipment wasn't an impediment to users getting into LF or MF. There still seems to be plenty of equipment floating around in the marketplace.

 

[Helge]

Sometimes you can't convince a person, even if you feel you're giving good arguments. At that point, let it go. I say that as a moderator and that's also why both Matt and I intervened earlier. At some point it's no longer a constructive discussion and that's the point where we step in as mods. Beyond this point, it just gets nasty and that's not what this forum is for.

Please note: this is not a notion I'm putting up for debate. It's the final polite admonition to drop it.

Sure, absolutely. Life too short and all that. Hence my post about ignoring.

 

[VinceInMT]

We just need new medium format cameras and large format lenses….

That got me thinking. Where are all those cameras and lenses that have been produced in the past? With less interest than before, they must be around somewhere or did they all end up in some landfill?

 

[koraks]

Thanks @Helge, and yes, indeed, life really is too short for some things
Rest assured that I believe all of us here hope we can continue enjoying film and paper for a long time!

 

[Sal Santamaura]

...the remaining manufacturers cannot keep up with demand for film...

More correct would be that some remaining manufacturers cannot keep up with the demand for confectioning/finishing of 35mm color film, while others have concluded that even today's elevated market prices aren't sufficient to justify production of certain film (and paper) products.

 

[Anon Ymous]

More correct would be that some remaining manufacturers cannot keep up with the demand for confectioning/finishing of 35mm color film, while others have concluded that even today's elevated market prices aren't sufficient to justify production of certain film (and paper) products.

One minor correction if I may:

Some remaining manufacturers cannot keep up with demand for confectioning/finishing of cheap 35mm color film.

I didn't notice any 135 Portra shortages in the last few years. Absolutely spot on about the other manufacturers who can't be bothered to produce film evem at today's elevated prices.

 

[Pieter12]

We just need new medium format cameras and large format lenses. That's completely incomprehensible for me, that Schneider, Nikon and Rodenstock have discontinued their LF lenses when there are so many new cameras available - Intrepid, Toyo, Linhof, Wista, Cambo, Chamonix, and maybe more...

That is something that makes sense because a large format camera is a very simple machine, and a lens and shutter in comparison is quite complicated. I find it interesting that these film cameras are still made with the number of used ones on the market at reasonable prices. Of course, Cambo and Arca Swiss also make digital-back cameras with movements that sell for a pretty penny.

DW Photo (Rolleiflex Hy6) in Germany makes a fabulous medium format camera and lenses supplied by Schneider. At one time there were even digital backs available for it. Unfortunately, because of what I understand is the small scale of their operation and possibly the shortage of skilled workers and parts, the cameras are made in small quantities and can be quite expensive and hard to find. There is also very limited support available in the U.S. and I am under the impression the factory is the only source of service in Europe. At least they kept Rolleiflex going after changing hands a number of times. I don't believe beyond Holga and the Eastern Europeans anyone else is making a medium format film camera anymore.

 

[Pieter12]

Absolutely spot on about the other manufacturers who can't be bothered to produce film evem at today's elevated prices.

So what keeps them in business?