Is there really a strong interest in film photography?

Sal Santamaura · Oct 30, 2022

CMoore said:
Yeah....... we JUST had this scenario regards the word "magic".
Some curmudgeon wanted to make sure that nobody believed in MAGIC.
No such thing, it is all an illusion, embraced by the uneducated masses...

I'm the "curmudgeon" you're referring to and invalid assumptions about whom caused you to to laugh earlier. And to whom you didn't apologize when those assumptions were shown to be baseless. "Magic" is an illusion, not real. Just like Santa Claus and "mystical" so-called phenomena. I have no ability to prevent anyone from believing (i.e. accepting in the absence of credible evidence) in so-called magic. Those who aren't educable in the sciences will, with increasing vociferousness each time they're shown to be wrong, insist on the reality of their favorite illusions. What's that old saying, "ignorance is bliss?"

CMoore said:
...not only is developing film and working in the darkroom magical, it is also miraculous.

Q.E.D., Chip.

Interesting, isn't it, that the more someone attempts to educate the masses on words' actual meaning, the more those who dislike reality respond by using ad hominem descriptors such as "curmudgeon."

faberryman · Oct 30, 2022

I shudder to think about the lecture we would receive if someone posted that it was raining cats and dogs.

Cholentpot · Oct 30, 2022

Pieter12 said:
How did you ever manage before digital? You forgot to mention if you clean the camera sensor before every assignment. And there is always the possibility of the sensor being exposed to dust when changing lenses, so it's a good idea to have a body and lens already assembled for each focal length you anticipate needing. If one of your three lenses needs service, you only have two lenses.

I didn't. I'm not in fogey territory yet. Give me another decade.

And there are gigs where I carry two bodies with lenses on my person so I have 17-200mm covered.

Sirius Glass · Oct 30, 2022

Getting everything right is skill. Good luck is getting a great print from a poor negative.

Cholentpot · Oct 30, 2022

Sirius Glass said:
Getting everything right is skill. Good luck is getting a great print from a poor negative.

Good luck is also getting good weather and light in some places. But like my Grandmother says, you make your own luck.

faberryman · Oct 30, 2022

Cholentpot said:
Good luck is also getting good weather and light in some places. But like my Grandmother says, you make your own luck.

I remember a saying that luck is where preparation meets opportunity. I believe that is from Seneca.

Pieter12 · Oct 30, 2022

Sirius Glass said:
Getting everything right is skill. Good luck is getting a great print from a poor negative.

It takes more skill than luck to make a great print from a bad negative.

Sal Santamaura · Oct 31, 2022

faberryman said:
I shudder to think about the lecture we would receive if someone posted that it was raining cats and dogs.

I don't recall PETA being a PHOTRIO member.

Huss · Nov 1, 2022

Cholentpot · Nov 1, 2022

Huss said:

Wearing onions on belts.

Agulliver · Nov 2, 2022

Not necessarily wishing to perpetuate this....but I do know some younger folk in their 20s and early 30s who specifically shoot film in a cavalier manner in cameras with light leaks *because* of that random element that might just introduce something wonderful into an image. Sure, 50% of the time that light leak or chromatic aberration just spoils what might have been a conventionally good photo but on other occasions they can add a certain "je ne sais quois".

Not my way of doing things but it's valid. Possibly akin to flicking paint apparently randomly onto a canvas as opposed to finely crafting a realistic oil painting. If they're buying film and developing services, I'm not going to discourage someone who's preferred method is taking a leaky old Diana clone or shooting into the sun with an uncoated lens.

Apropos of nothing, I don't think I've ever shot a SLR or DSLR in full auto mode. But the way I learned and honed what is undoubtedly a combination of science, craft and art....is not the only way to learn and hone.

faberryman · Nov 2, 2022

Agulliver said:
Apropos of nothing, I don't think I've ever shot a SLR or DSLR in full auto mode. But the way I learned and honed what is undoubtedly a combination of science, craft and art....is not the only way to learn and hone.

What do you consider full auto mode? Is that like Program mode plus autofocus? I had forgotten exactly what Program mode does so I looked it up.

"Program mode is marked by 'P' on your camera's mode dial and is one of the Creative Zone modes, though one with the least control over your exposure settings."

Isn't it interesting that Program mode is one of the Creative Zone modes. I am not sure what is creative about Program mode, except that it maybe introduces some randomness into the mix. You never know what shutter speed and aperture you are going to get. Except that you can look at the chart and see what shutter speed and aperture Program mode uses for a given EV. Program mode is not exactly a random number generator, but maybe it's the next best thing.

I don't have Program mode on my film cameras. I do have Program mode on my digital cameras, though I have never used it. I am a real photographer. Well, except that it is digital.

I only have so much time for photography, so I don't think I'll take the light seals out of my camera and see if anything good happens by accident. It sounds like the monkey with a typewriter approach to photography. It also could get expensive given the price of film today. But if someone wants to do that, it is okay with me. As always, show me the prints.

koraks · Nov 2, 2022

faberryman said:
Isn't it interesting that Program mode is one of the Creative Zone modes.

Sounds like you took that from a Canon brochure/website. I think they call anything that isn't the green 'full auto' square part of the 'creative zones'. It's probably because in Program AE you can shift the aperture/shutter combination in either direction. Canon's full-auto mode doesn't allow this. Furthermore, Program AE on Canon SLR's doesn't feature automatic flash, whereas their full auto mode does.

All this is of course inconsequential.

faberryman said:
I do have Program mode on my digital cameras, though I have never used it. I am a real photographer.

You mean: you like doing it the hard way in the supposition that this does something positive for your photography, while in reality you're fooling yourself by focusing on technical matters that don't contribute to the actual meaning or aesthetic merit of the images you produce. Real photographers use whatever tool gets them to the envisioned result and don't waste time arguing about what is or isn't 'creative' according to a camera manufacturer, or try to take pride in doing something the hard way if it can be done any easier. It's OK though; I empathize. A cure is possible, but it takes time.

warden · Nov 2, 2022

When I photograph performers (which is not all that often unfortunately) I always leave some exposures to chance and luck. Long exposures while I’m walking with the camera on stage, or maybe shooting directly into stage lights with performers obstructing views, etc. It’s good to mix the lucky ones in with the studied ones. I have found the performers are drawn to the lucky ones as much as the studied images.

faberryman · Nov 2, 2022

koraks said:
Sounds like you took that from a Canon brochure/website. I think they call anything that isn't the green 'full auto' square part of the 'creative zones'. It's probably because in Program AE you can shift the aperture/shutter combination in either direction. Canon's full-auto mode doesn't allow this. Furthermore, Program AE on Canon SLR's doesn't feature automatic flash, whereas their full auto mode does.

All this is of course inconsequential.

I just took the description from the first site Google returned. I have no idea what camera manufacturer's camera it related to. On the other hand, it sounds like you know all about the intricate minutiae of Canon cameras to enable you to identify it as a Canon related site. That business about the different flash modes was pretty impressive too. I hope you are not fooling yourself focusing on technical matters that don't contribute to the actual meaning or aesthetic merit of the images you produce.

koraks said:
You mean: you like doing it the hard way in the supposition that this does something positive for your photography, while in reality you're fooling yourself by focusing on technical matters that don't contribute to the actual meaning or aesthetic merit of the images you produce.

If I had to look up the meaning of Program mode, I am probably not fooling myself focusing on technical matters that don't contribute to the actual meaning or aesthetic merit of the images I produce.

koraks said:
Real photographers use whatever tool gets them to the envisioned result and don't waste time arguing about what is or isn't 'creative' according to a camera manufacturer, or try to take pride in doing something the hard way if it can be done any easier. It's OK though; I empathize. A cure is possible, but it takes time.

Thank you for that enlightening observation. I know it will make me a better photographer in the future.

koraks · Nov 2, 2022

Well, @faberryman, this was a slightly inappropriate (for which I apologize) way of saying that I noticed your behavior in this thread over the past few days, which has not been very constructive or friendly. I refrained from stepping in until now, and I personally don't mind dealing with a snarky tone or a bad case of cynicism - you can reap what you sow as far as I'm concerned. However, others probably don't appreciate this kind of altercation, and frankly it's not really something I prefer either if given the choice. And given that your behavior is fairly consistent, it seems like a good point to see if we can change this around.

So let's keep the nastiness at this and continue from here in a way that nobody can mistake as trolling, shall we? I'd very much appreciate this, and so would many others, I'm sure.

Pieter12 · Nov 2, 2022

Program mode on Nikons and other cameras that I own that feature it gives an aperture and shutter speed combination that is displayed in the viewfinder. It also takes the focal length of the lens into account. You can aways change either the shutter speed or aperture and the other will follow keeping the proper exposure. On digital cameras, you can also adjust the slowest shutter speed acceptable for program mode in one of the menus. It really isn't that much different than using aperture-priority or shutter priority, it just uses algorithms to determine the best combination and you can modify it from there. You can also use the exposure combination dial to intentionally over- or under-expose.

Back to "intentional mistakes" I have always held that in order to mess with things, one must know how to do them right first. Most abstract artists like Picasso or de Kooning were excellent draftsmen and colorists, but chose to distort for their art.

Alan Edward Klein · Nov 2, 2022

I leave it on P mode and focus on content.

pbromaghin · Nov 2, 2022

Alan Edward Klein said:
I leave it on P mode and focus on content.

Ah, but it decides the aperture and shutter speed, which do influence the content of the depth of field and the look of any moving object.

I have one Minolta X700 that I've started using in "P" mode with expired Vision2, obtained in a large volume for dirt cheap. Sometimes it surprises with a shutter speed unexpected for the lighting conditions. It's fun, just shooting away. Kind of like digital.

Sirius Glass · Nov 2, 2022

I often use the P mode on my Nikon N75 often. Unfortunately I made the mistake of leaving it in that mode when a took a helicopter tour on Kauai and some of the darker area photographs were badly blurred.

Oldwino · Nov 2, 2022

If you know what you are doing, and have experience with setting proper exposure, then sometimes a degree of automation can be nice. In some circumstances, P mode is the right choice.
Likewise with other automations, like focus and winding the film. Sometimes, it's just what you need.

Huss · Nov 2, 2022

Leica has the best program mode in the R9. With whatever lens you have, set the aperture to the smallest setting. Set the exposure mode to P.
Then rotate the shutter speed dial to whatever you would like the slowest shutter speed to be. So no matter what focal length lens you are using, you can set whatever min shutter speed at an instant, no menu diving etc.
Now the beautiful part - the camera will try to accommodate that but if it can't it will pick a lower shutter speed for correct exposure.

In Aperture priority and Shutter priority it does something similar. If the aperture or shutter speed that you select will not allow for a correct exposure, the camera will set the next closest one that will. Even my F6 doesn't do that! It will just say Hi or Lo (but at least it does tell you buy how much). If you want to over-ride, then Leica has provided a super convenient EXp Comp lever, or you switch to manual.

MattKing · Nov 2, 2022

If the availability of program mode on a camera encourages people to use that camera, it is a good thing.
If it doesn't add much to your use of a camera, don't use it.

Moose22 · Nov 2, 2022

pbromaghin said:
Ah, but it decides the aperture and shutter speed, which do influence the content of the depth of field and the look of any moving object.

Not always. P on my F6 picks something, I can then alter it easily without taking the camera away from my eyes. Same with my digitals. I spin that dial often if I want something else.

If I'm not planning a shot, just leaving it P means if something comes up I can take it instantly. Better to get something than nothing.

I tend to prefer A for a lot, with depth of field being important, or sometimes I choose S or go manual when I want some effect like subtle motion blur, or I know I have unchanging light and I don't want the meter to be messing with things as I point it at a tough scene.

Horses for courses.

But P is not the same as full auto. I definitely view the suggestion and wheel it up or down if I don't like it. If I feel the need for exposure compensation I've got a bunch of ways to do that, too, and I similarly choose the correct way based entirely on circumstances. Each camera has its quirks and benefits, you just need to use what's best for you and your workflow.

More philosophically, I don't see why anyone gives a crap how someone else's camera is set. They're just tools. If I were a contractor and you liked the gazebo I built do you care whether I used an electric or pneumatic nail gun, or what hammer I used? We should all just do what makes us happy and gets us the image we wanted to get.

Pieter12 · Nov 2, 2022

Huss said:
Leica has the best program mode in the R9. With whatever lens you have, set the aperture to the smallest setting. Set the exposure mode to P.
Then rotate the shutter speed dial to whatever you would like the slowest shutter speed to be. So no matter what focal length lens you are using, you can set whatever min shutter speed at an instant, no menu diving etc.
Now the beautiful part - the camera will try to accommodate that but if it can't it will pick a lower shutter speed for correct exposure.

In Aperture priority and Shutter priority it does something similar. If the aperture or shutter speed that you select will not allow for a correct exposure, the camera will set the next closest one that will. Even my F6 doesn't do that! It will just say Hi or Lo (but at least it does tell you buy how much). If you want to over-ride, then Leica has provided a super convenient EXp Comp lever, or you switch to manual.

That sounds good, but I'm not really sure I want some engineer to dictate the shutter speed if I have already chosen it. I would rather see a Hi or Lo and make the call for myself if it is the shutter speed or aperture I want to change. Or grab a tripod if that is handy. The cameras I have that have a P setting automatically take into account the focal length of the lens, nothing to go to the menus for. The menu setting is generally for an absolute slower limit--some are comfortable with 1/30, some 1/15 or even slower. But the focal length will determine the preferred speed in P.

Is there really a strong interest in film photography?

Sal Santamaura

faberryman

Cholentpot

Sirius Glass

Cholentpot

faberryman

Pieter12

Sal Santamaura

Huss

Cholentpot

Agulliver

faberryman

koraks

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warden

faberryman

koraks

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Pieter12

Alan Edward Klein

pbromaghin

Sirius Glass

Oldwino

Huss

MattKing

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Moose22

Pieter12

Is there really a strong interest in film photography?

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