Is there really a strong interest in film photography?

[Cholentpot]

I refuse to think you really don't get it. You're better than this, and you're arguing for the sake of an argument. Let's try again.

Surgery has nothing to do with an artistic endeavour. 'Success' for a surgery is unequivocally defined: survival of the patient and improvement of whatever condition they had that led them to need and receive surgery. Mistakes in surgery? Also immediately and unequivocally defined.
To go back to my previous example: Designing, building and launching the James Webb Space Telescope? Success is unequivocally defined. Mistakes are clearly defined. Failure is unequivocally defined. All errors and failure paths are carefully analysed and simulated by the engineers and the scientists. If mistakes happen, everybody will agree they were mistakes, because success of this (non-artistic) endeavour was clear to anyone.

Now back to art. An example. Taking a picture of that iconic bit of flat rock in Yosemite. Success is not unequivocally defined. There is no clear sequence of steps that can be taken and that would make everybody agree that it was a success:

-Some people will find that the carefully exposed negatives of Ansel Adams, carefully printed, with the detailed shadows in zone 3 are a success.
-Some people may despise the result of such formalism and instead choose as a successful outcome a picture of the same subject taken with expired Cinestill 800T, loaded in a Canon AE1 with fraying light seals, and developed in beer and cat's piss.
-Some people may despise cat's piss and shadows in zone III and decide the best picture of the iconic bit of flat rock is taken with Delta 3200 pushed to 12000 and exposed in Rodinal 1+1000 stand with bromide drag and surge marks.

To summarise, in art, success means different things to different people and, quite clearly, to different generations. There is no one way to realise your vision, and (some) young film users are finding that film photography allows for more degrees of freedom than digital photography. They find this sense of freedom alluring.

And some people just like the click-clack whirl ka-chunk ping of cameras.

To throw more gas on the grill, it's the same for firearms. Many many people just like the mechanicalness of the tool. You need to set everything up. Pull all the right levers, dial in the dials and set all the switches line the thing up and yank the trigger. If all was done right a series of steps happen and ends in a result that you hopefully primed right.

Camera is sort of the same. Set all the dials, check and recheck that you've done it right. Hit the shutter release and hopefully it all goes right. Even at the most proficient level you're still running a checklist through your head before exposing a frame. With my digital cameras that list is far shorter. The film camera is a bigger challenge therefore a bigger payoff when I get it right.

I'm far prouder of my excellent film shots than I am of my digital photos.

 

[faberryman]

I refuse to think you really don't get it. You're better than this, and you're arguing for the sake of an argument. Let's try again.

Surgery has nothing to do with an artistic endeavour. 'Success' for a surgery is unequivocally defined: survival of the patient and improvement of whatever condition they had that led them to need and receive surgery. Mistakes in surgery? Also immediately and unequivocally defined.
To go back to my previous example: Designing, building and launching the James Webb Space Telescope? Success is unequivocally defined. Mistakes are clearly defined. Failure is unequivocally defined. All errors and failure paths are carefully analysed and simulated by the engineers and the scientists. If mistakes happen, everybody will agree they were mistakes, because success of this (non-artistic) endeavour was clear to anyone.

Now back to art. An example. Taking a picture of that iconic bit of flat rock in Yosemite. Success is not unequivocally defined. There is no clear sequence of steps that can be taken and that would make everybody agree that it was a success:

-Some people will find that the carefully exposed negatives of Ansel Adams, carefully printed, with the detailed shadows in zone 3 are a success.
-Some people may despise the result of such formalism and instead choose as a successful outcome a picture of the same subject taken with expired Cinestill 800T, loaded in a Canon AE1 with fraying light seals, and developed in beer and cat's piss.
-Some people may despise cat's piss and shadows in zone III and decide the best picture of the iconic bit of flat rock is taken with Delta 3200 pushed to 12000 and exposed in Rodinal 1+1000 stand with bromide drag and surge marks.

To summarise, in art, success means different things to different people and, quite clearly, to different generations. There is no one way to realise your vision, and (some) young film users are finding that film photography allows for more degrees of freedom than digital photography. They find this sense of freedom alluring.

What does any of that have to do with luck and shooting film? Was Ansel Adams just lucky. Was he lucky because he shot film? I have shot digital and thought I was lucky because I got an unexpected result that I liked, so luck isn't film limited. Luck is another nonsensical reason for shooting film. There are lots of great reasons to shoot film. Luck isn't one of them. It sounds kind of cool until you actually have to explain it. It is obvious you are floundering around because you've gone from process variables to musical performance to the James Webb telescope to success to art to freedom. Freedom? Hokey smokes, Bullwinkle.

 

[faberryman]

Camera is sort of the same. Set all the dials, check and recheck that you've done it right. Hit the shutter release and hopefully it all goes right.

Hopefully? Maybe you would feel more confident if you got your camera CLAed.

 

[Cholentpot]

Hopefully? Maybe you would feel more confident if you got your camera CLAed.

Alright wise guy.

Turn on DSLR, put on full auto and press shutter. 99.9% of the time you'll get the photo. If not you shoot in RAW and rescue it in post.

Turn on full auto whizbang last gen SLR and set to full auto. How many frames left? Is the film appropriate for the scene? Do I need to take a separate roll of film if I run out. If you're one who bulk loads there's always a chance of rewind failure. Even standard rolls can come off the reel and you'll need a dark bag.

Now say you're 100% responsible and never mess up. You finish that roll of color film shot at the proper ISO and everything is doozy and dandy. It's 104 degrees in the car, so you can't leave the film in the car, you'll need to keep it on you or have a cooled bag. You get home and have to get that roll off to the lab ASAP because your responsible and don't want any issues with the film sitting around. Your lab doesn't mess up and sends you back perfect scans with no dust or scratches.

Everything went right.

I charged my battery overnight, or didn't. Doesn't matter. My DSLR has two card slots. Did I bring an extra card? Doesn't matter. Leave camera in hot car? Doesn't matter. Bring camera home after shoot. Load photos on computer now or in 10 years. Again, doesn't matter. Everything is fine.

I don't shoot a dozen rolls a year and ship them off for the record. I shoot near as I can tell over 100 rolls of varying formats and emulsions. And I develop all of it myself. From 16mm through 4x5. I sent one roll off to a lab this year, a roll of Ektachrome 64 from a bulk roll for a baseline test. I'm no expert, but I'm not a beginner. I still mess up, it's the nature of the format. And yes, I mess up with digital too. Sometimes it's me and sometimes it's the equipment. A CLA won't fix any of this.

 

[BradS]

 

[Cholentpot]

View attachment 320372

I got my camera CLAed and my photos still suck. What do I do now?

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

A young student of mine picked up a Nikon F80. I cleaned it up for her (had really sticky grips...yuck!), rolled her some film, and out the door she went. She already knew the three main modes, S, A, and M from using a DSLR. She came back the next day, developed her film (HP5), and got nicely exposed frames. She'll contact print them on Monday, and pick a few to enlarge. This is the scenario that I am seeing more now than I did 6 years ago.

 

[Cholentpot]

A young student of mine picked up a Nikon F80. I cleaned it up for her (had really sticky grips...yuck!), rolled her some film, and out the door she went. She already knew the three main modes, S, A, and M from using a DSLR. She came back the next day, developed her film (HP5), and got nicely exposed frames. She'll contact print them on Monday, and pick a few to enlarge. This is the scenario that I am seeing more now than I did 6 years ago.

Learn on digital, and moving to film won't be so painful. We have the best of both worlds right now.

 

[Pieter12]

So, what I am getting from this discussion is people shoot film because they or the lab can make mistakes that might miraculously turn their photos into art. Or ruin them, but they seem to like that challenge of not knowing whether the loaded the gun that could orr could not have been cleaned and they might be pointing at a target while considering the surgery that could be botched during the assembly of the Webb Space telescope. And a CLA of their camera will guarantee that they will be addicted to shooting film forever and never say digital or you will be damned to a fiery eternity in hell.

 

[Dwight Anderson]

So, what I am getting from this discussion is people shoot film because they or the lab can make mistakes that might miraculously turn their photos into art. Or ruin them, but they seem to like that challenge of not knowing whether the loaded the gun that could orr could not have been cleaned and they might be pointing at a target while considering the surgery that could be botched during the assembly of the Webb Space telescope. And a CLA of their camera will guarantee that they will be addicted to shooting film forever and never say digital or you will be damned to a fiery eternity in hell.

Finally, someone gets it that different people have different reasons for shooting film!!

 

[faberryman]

Alright wise guy.

Turn on DSLR, put on full auto and press shutter. 99.9% of the time you'll get the photo. If not you shoot in RAW and rescue it in post.

Turn on full auto whizbang last gen SLR and set to full auto. How many frames left? Is the film appropriate for the scene? Do I need to take a separate roll of film if I run out. If you're one who bulk loads there's always a chance of rewind failure. Even standard rolls can come off the reel and you'll need a dark bag.

Now say you're 100% responsible and never mess up. You finish that roll of color film shot at the proper ISO and everything is doozy and dandy. It's 104 degrees in the car, so you can't leave the film in the car, you'll need to keep it on you or have a cooled bag. You get home and have to get that roll off to the lab ASAP because your responsible and don't want any issues with the film sitting around. Your lab doesn't mess up and sends you back perfect scans with no dust or scratches.

Everything went right.

I charged my battery overnight, or didn't. Doesn't matter. My DSLR has two card slots. Did I bring an extra card? Doesn't matter. Leave camera in hot car? Doesn't matter. Bring camera home after shoot. Load photos on computer now or in 10 years. Again, doesn't matter. Everything is fine.

I don't shoot a dozen rolls a year and ship them off for the record. I shoot near as I can tell over 100 rolls of varying formats and emulsions. And I develop all of it myself. From 16mm through 4x5. I sent one roll off to a lab this year, a roll of Ektachrome 64 from a bulk roll for a baseline test. I'm no expert, but I'm not a beginner. I still mess up, it's the nature of the format. And yes, I mess up with digital too. Sometimes it's me and sometimes it's the equipment. A CLA won't fix any of this.

All that being said, when you shoot film, do you approach it with a sort of a hope and a prayer or God willing and the creek don't rise attitude toward success? When you drive over to the grocery store, are you thinking that hopefully you'll make it there without getting a flat tire or your transmission falling out? If you fixate on everything that could possibly go wrong, you will never walk out the door in the morning, assuming you risked it and got out of bed. Just take reasonable precautions.

If I am shooting film, I carry an extra body, extra film, and extra batteries, If I don't know the lighting conditions, I carry different ISO films so I won't be caught out. If I encounter a rewind error (I never have), I can leave the film in that camera body, use my backup body, and deal with the problem back in the darkroom. I don't leave the film in a 104 degree car. If it is hot, I leave the cameras and film in the trunk. They are less likely to get stolen there too. I have never encountered a problem. Of course, I can screw up the processing, so I am careful. How many of those 100 rolls of film you shoot a year do you screw up?

If I am shooting digital, I carry an extra body, extra memory cards, and extra batteries. I also carry a portable hard drive so I can back up the memory cards. I do not erase the memory cards so I have two sets of images. I carry a couple of chargers so I can charge multiple batteries more quickly at night. I make backups of my photographs when editing on my main computer. Cameras can fail. Memory cards can fail. Hard drives can fail. Computers can fail. And there are lots of ways to screw up digital just as with film.

Shooting film is not a high wire act.

 

[faberryman]

I got my camera CLAed and my photos still suck. What do I do now?

Is this a variation of the old how do you get to Carnegie Hall joke? Practice, practice?

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

And some people just like the click-clack whirl ka-chunk ping of cameras.

To throw more gas on the grill, it's the same for firearms. Many many people just like the mechanicalness of the tool. You need to set everything up. Pull all the right levers, dial in the dials and set all the switches line the thing up and yank the trigger. If all was done right a series of steps happen and ends in a result that you hopefully primed right.

Camera is sort of the same. Set all the dials, check and recheck that you've done it right. Hit the shutter release and hopefully it all goes right. Even at the most proficient level you're still running a checklist through your head before exposing a frame. With my digital cameras that list is far shorter. The film camera is a bigger challenge therefore a bigger payoff when I get it right.

I'm far prouder of my excellent film shots than I am of my digital photos.

I agree with most of that except my Mamiya RB67 film camera manual is around 50 pages and my Sony RX100iv digital camera manual is around 450 pages. It took me a week to go through the Sony manual when I first got it. Setting up and changing its menu can be stressful and forboding unless you switch to "A". When shooting the Sony manually, a lot of luck is involved.

 

[Cholentpot]

All that being said, when you shoot film, do you approach it with a sort of a hope and a prayer or God willing and the creek don't rise attitude toward success? When you drive over to the grocery store, are you thinking that hopefully you'll make it there without getting a flat tire or your transmission falling out? If you fixate on everything that could possibly go wrong, you will never walk out the door in the morning, assuming you risked it and got out of bed. Just take reasonable precautions.

If I am shooting film, I carry an extra body, extra film, and extra batteries, If I don't know the lighting conditions, I carry different ISO films so I won't be caught out. If I encounter a rewind error (I never have), I can leave the film in that camera body, use my backup body, and deal with the problem back in the darkroom. I don't leave the film in a 104 degree car. If it is hot, I leave the cameras and film in the trunk. They are less likely to get stolen there too. I have never encountered a problem. Of course, I can screw up the processing, so I am careful. How many of those 100 rolls of film you shoot a year do you screw up?

If I am shooting digital, I carry an extra body, extra memory cards, and extra batteries. I also carry a portable hard drive so I can back up the memory cards. I do not erase the memory cards so I have two sets of images. I carry a couple of chargers so I can charge multiple batteries more quickly at night. I make backups of my photographs when editing on my main computer. Cameras can fail. Memory cards can fail. Hard drives can fail. Computers can fail. And there are lots of ways to screw up digital just as with film.

Shooting film is not a high wire act.

You seem like a suspenders and belt kind of fellow.

I agree with most of that except my Mamiya RB67 film camera manual is around 50 pages and my Sony RX100iv digital camera manual is around 450 pages. It took me a week to go through the Sony manual when I first got it. Setting up and changing its menu can be stressful and forboding unless you switch to "A". When shooting the Sony manually, a lot of luck is involved.

This is going to devolve into a brand issue. I shoot Canon for digital and work. My 550D and my 5Dmk4 have similar menus. Yes the 5D is way more complex but in the end aside from the customization, the ISO, f/stop, and shutter are all more or less the same camera to camera. I don't understand Sony. It's like getting a new PC and setting it up. I just wanna take photos.

With film SLRs they're just about the same. I read the manual because I enjoy reading manuals. But ya know, the Nikon F2 and Yashica FX-3 more or less operate the same.

 

[faberryman]

You seem like a suspenders and belt kind of fellow.

I wouldn't be caught dead wearing a belt and suspenders. Also, while I do carry a spare tire, I do not carry a spare transmission when I drive, so you can see I am a big risk taker.

Like I said, take a few precautions so you can save yourself the anxiety of the "hopefully it will come out" approach to shooting film. Also, you won't have to explain to your client what a rewind problem is and why he won't be getting any of those bar mitzvah photos he hired you to take.

 

[Cholentpot]

I wouldn't be caught dead wearing a belt and suspenders. Also, while I do carry a spare tire, I do not carry a spare transmission when I drive, so you can see I am a big risk taker.

Like I said, take a few precautions so you can save yourself the anxiety of the "hopefully it will come out" approach to shooting film. Also, you won't have to explain to your client what a rewind problem is and why he won't be getting any of those bar mitzvah photos he hired you to take.

When I'm on the job it's belt and suspender time. I got two bodies, multiple batteries, backup to my backups etc and etc. I even have multiple copies of my most used lens. I would have a second copy of the 70-200 2.8 but I can't afford it. The 24-105 I have three of. Two working.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

Learn on digital, and moving to film won't be so painful. We have the best of both worlds right now.

I found its easier starting them with the DSLR, as digital is more familiar to them. The transition to the K1000 is a lot easier then.

 

[MattKing]

I must be a lucky guy - I get to moderate threads like this.
Can we just agree that that which is joy to some, is anathema to others?
Or that what interests some (about film photography) is disliked by others?
I feel lucky any time I get to be out with a camera.
When I used to charge for my photographic services, I did my utmost to minimize the uncertainties, but luck/good fortune as to subjects, circumstances or light came into play often enough to be appreciated.

 

[Pieter12]

I don't think anyone has any disagreements about enjoying film photography. It just seems like some have cooked up some implausible reasons they think young folks are taking to it. However one approaches film, whether as a straightforward photographic medium or an unexploded bomb or some sort of magical font of artistic flaws, film seems to satisfy something for them.

 

[Oldwino]

I don't think anyone has any disagreements about enjoying film photography. It just seems like some have cooked up some implausible reasons they think young folks are taking to it. However one approaches film, whether as a straightforward photographic medium or an unexploded bomb or some sort of magical font of artistic flaws, film seems to satisfy something for them.

A lot of young folks themselves have cooked up implausible reasons explaining why using a film camera will make them somehow "better"/"desirable"/"important"...

 

[Pieter12]

A lot of young folks themselves have cooked up implausible reasons explaining why using a film camera will make them somehow "better"/"desirable"/"important"...

It is amazing how easily people (and not just young people) can be influenced by others they admire or just want to emulate. How many times has someone posted here "what kind of camera/lens/film did so-and-so (insert famous, trending photographer here) use?" The moment I saw that the popular fashionTerry Richardson photographer (and terrible person) was using a Yashica T4, I put mine up for sale to get in on the crest of the wave of popularity I could see coming.

 

[albireo]

View attachment 320372

Ne'er a truer word spoken. They just want to be entertained.

 

[faberryman]

When I'm on the job it's belt and suspender time. I got two bodies, multiple batteries, backup to my backups etc and etc. I even have multiple copies of my most used lens. I would have a second copy of the 70-200 2.8 but I can't afford it. The 24-105 I have three of. Two working.

So nothing “hopefully” about your approach.

 

[Cholentpot]

Ne'er a truer word spoken. They just want to be entertained.

Gotta chum the waters

So nothing “hopefully” about your approach.

Money is on the line. I don't play games.

I found its easier starting them with the DSLR, as digital is more familiar to them. The transition to the K1000 is a lot easier then.

The instant feedback is very helpful. You exactly what you did right or wrong. K1000 was my first serious 35mm body.

 

[Pieter12]

Money is on the line. I don't play games.

How did you ever manage before digital? You forgot to mention if you clean the camera sensor before every assignment. And there is always the possibility of the sensor being exposed to dust when changing lenses, so it's a good idea to have a body and lens already assembled for each focal length you anticipate needing. If one of your three lenses needs service, you only have two lenses.