Is there really a revival of analog photography

[George Mann]

Apparently?

That's what the insiders tell me.

 

[faberryman]

That's what the insiders tell me.

Who are these insiders you are relying on?

 

[George Mann]

Who are these insiders you are relying on?

People who sell film primarily.

 

[faberryman]

People who sell film primarily.

Oh.

 

[MattKing]

The people who sell Kodak film on a retail basis rarely have any knowledge about the manufacturing part.
There are at least two levels of distribution between them and the manufacturer.
I have on reliable authority that even during the height of Covid lockdown, Eastman Kodak`s film manufacturing continued without interruption or staff reductions.
But the other parts of the process - the parts that get product from Building 38 out into the end user`s hands - they were completely disrupted.

 

[Moose22]

But the other parts of the process - the parts that get product from Building 38 out into the end user`s hands - they were completely disrupted.

I don't doubt your word on this in the least.

This is one of the biggest problems with economic shortages right now everywhere. From film (Fuji can't get a chemical reliably to my local never knowing when they will get stock) to consumer goods at retail. Even food where the grocery store can't keep meat in stock has followed this. Even things like bacon or pork chops last year while domestic pork belly prices were extremely low and farmers couldn't sell their hogs. The issues were all around processing and transport, the multiple steps between the farmer and the grocer.

Right now logistics is like a heavily traveled freeway. It's all fine when things are moving, but if someone slams on their brakes there will be a ripple that travels back up the freeway of everyone else having to hit their brakes in response. Half an hour later and 5 miles up the freeway people are still seeing surging traffic even when the guy who had originally stopped is long gone.

 

[Pieter12]

I don't doubt your word on this in the least.

This is one of the biggest problems with economic shortages right now everywhere. From film (Fuji can't get a chemical reliably to my local never knowing when they will get stock) to consumer goods at retail. Even food where the grocery store can't keep meat in stock has followed this. Even things like bacon or pork chops last year while domestic pork belly prices were extremely low and farmers couldn't sell their hogs. The issues were all around processing and transport, the multiple steps between the farmer and the grocer.

Right now logistics is like a heavily traveled freeway. It's all fine when things are moving, but if someone slams on their brakes there will be a ripple that travels back up the freeway of everyone else having to hit their brakes in response. Half an hour later and 5 miles up the freeway people are still seeing surging traffic even when the guy who had originally stopped is long gone.

Part of this problem is the "just in time" logistics that has been a part of "lean" manufacturing for a while now. Works great until there's a snag in the system. Then it all goes to hell.

 

[Moose22]

Part of this problem is the "just in time" logistics that has been a part of "lean" manufacturing for a while now. Works great until there's a snag in the system. Then it all goes to hell.

Exactly this.

Right now retailers and even grocers are having to learn to carry extra stock, something they haven't done in the last couple of decades. And it isn't always working, nor is it easy with perishables. It takes quite a while for disruptions to even out and transport is pretty much booked -- domestically I mean, not the well known problems with international shipping -- for the rest of the year because of it.

It all seems well and good to use your supplier as your warehouse, but we're definitely seeing the downside play out now.

 

[removed account4]

Apparently, it is part of the UPC/serial number.

this isn't true. they don't make a new bar code every batch of film, but they do go in the computer and adjust the price for the film
so when they scan the bar code the right price pops up and it edits and tracks inventory so when the "par" is reached the buyer knows when to buy more film/product.

 

[George Mann]

this isn't true. they don't make a new bar code every batch of film, but they do go in the computer and adjust the price for the film
so when they scan the bar code the right price pops up and it edits and tracks inventory so when the "par" is reached the buyer knows when to buy more film/product.

It doesn't matter how it is done, just that it is.

 

[removed account4]

the thing is its NOT done.

 

[George Mann]

the thing is its NOT done.

Of course it is. They have to track the batches for quality control purposes.

 

[removed account4]

Of course it is. They have to track the batches for quality control purposes.

the batch numbers are stamped on film boxes not associated with UPC symbols.
you might want to talk to you official source because maybe you misunderstood him/her/them.
I spoke with someone this afternoon and that is what I was told. I was also told "they don't change the upc symbol for every batch of film, its been the same for as long as as I have been working here..."

 

[MattKing]

They don't use the UPC code for batch tracking, because UPCs and related bar codes are assigned by third parties, and changes require changes in SKU numbers and catalogue entries.
Film manufactures do print batch numbers on packaging and, at least in the case of Kodak and 120 film, in little tiny numbers near frame number 11 on the rebate of the film.

 

[Pieter12]

the batch numbers are stamped on film boxes not associated with UPC symbols.
you might want to talk to you official source because maybe you misunderstood him/her/them.
I spoke with someone this afternoon and that is what I was told. I was also told "they don't change the upc symbol for every batch of film, its been the same for as long as as I have been working here..."

They don't use the UPC code for batch tracking, because UPCs and related bar codes are assigned by third parties, and changes require changes in SKU numbers and catalogue entries.
Film manufactures do print batch numbers on packaging and, at least in the case of Kodak and 120 film, in little tiny numbers near frame number 11 on the rebate of the film.

The UPC code is printed when the box is printed, usually in larger quantities than the film and at a totally different time and facility. It is only when the film is put in the package that an expiration date is imprinted--you can see it is not done on the same equipment as the rest of the label.

 

[MattKing]

In addition, I'm not sure whether the batch number refers to the coating, the master roll, or the confectioning.
All three are possible, but I don't think there are a lot of still film master rolls being prepared any more with multiple master rolls being made from a single set of coating runs. The days when Kodak made 70 master stock rolls of Kodacolor each and every day (enough for 3.5 million spools!) are long gone!

 

[removed account4]

In addition, I'm not sure whether the batch number refers to the coating, the master roll, or the confectioning.
All three are possible, but I don't think there are a lot of still film master rolls being prepared any more with multiple master rolls being made from a single set of coating runs. The days when Kodak made 70 master stock rolls of Kodacolor each and every day (enough for 3.5 million spools!) are long gone!

too bad PE isn't here, he'd clear up this whole mess!

 

[MattKing]

too bad PE isn't here, he'd clear up this whole mess!

Actually, Bob Shanebrook aka laser is here and, as the author of "Making Kodak Film" would be even better .

 

[Down Under]

The prices for just about everything is going up because of the COVID supply problems. After things smooth out, most prices will slowly drop back. Keep shooting film to stay busy.

Agree. And many people are buying less. Here in Australia, more employed Aussies than ever are now having to make do with neighborhood food banks to survive. From what I've been reading, in Canada and the USA the situation is the same.

Almost all the (mostly younger, in many cases very young) photographers I saw in 2019 (pre-Covid) are no longer shooting film. This has made a significant impact on the photo retailer I buy my stocks from in Melbourne, where the staff tell me much less film is being sold - B&W still predominates, C41 has dropped, E6 is all but extinct. An online film seller friend is also virtually out of business, he says he can no longer compete with overseas prices and buying his stocks now costs him almost 40% what he was paying three years ago. Both these retailers had to put up their prices several times in the last two years to cope, and their sales went down accordingly.

None of this is good news. If anything will eventually lead us to the extinction of film photography, along with environmental concerns, it will be high prices.

Nobody likes or wants this (I surely do not), but like it or not, it's something we will have to live with, and get used to. The world out there is changing and there are some big and unpleasant surprises ahead for us.

 

[George Mann]

in Canada and the USA the situation is the same.

No. We in the US have the opposite problem. Demand for film has outstripped the ability of manufacturers to supply it.

 

[laser]

An individual sales unit can be traced to the coating, slitting, and spooling events. This is helpful to Kodak in case a problem occurs. With this information they can go back to determine the cause. Identification beyond the film code and emulsion number is of little value to photographers. The quality, from say 1980 on, is such that differences will not be seen.

The 4 digit film code i.e. 5053 for 35mm T-Max 400 means 50xx 5mil tri cellulose acetate. xx53 is T-Max 400 emulsion that is use on acetate.

The individual sales unit will have a film code followed by a 4-digit number. The first 3 of the second set are the sequential batch number. Though some numbers will be skipped and they may not start at 001X. The 4th is a Kodak code. It is usually xxx1.


Film is identified as:

film code 4digits i.e. 5053:
emulsion batch number 3 digits of 4 digits
Kodak code 4th digit of 4 digits
Master roll number
Part: for example number of 2,000 foot length increment into the roll. Assigned during rewinding or slitting. Parts can be shorter than 2,000 feet
Slit: 35 mm increment, sequential from one side. For 54-inch master rolls yield 38 slits. Today's narrower master rolls yield 29 or 30 slits.

120 film, motion picture, and other films follow similar protocol.

www.makingKODAKfilm.com

 

[Pieter12]

I don't shoot a lot of 35mm, even less Kodak 35mm. Ilford 35 has some sort of bar code running along the bottom edge, I wonder what that contains and if Kodak does the same?

 

[faberryman]

I don't shoot a lot of 35mm, even less Kodak 35mm. Ilford 35 has some sort of bar code running along the bottom edge, I wonder what that contains and if Kodak does the same?

I haven't looked carefully at the boxes recently. I just glance at the flap to note the expiration date.

 

[Moose22]

I don't shoot a lot of 35mm, even less Kodak 35mm. Ilford 35 has some sort of bar code running along the bottom edge, I wonder what that contains and if Kodak does the same?

Ilford's barcodes are DX, film type, frame number. Meant to be read by automatic processors mostly. I don't think Kodak does it, based on the two rolls of TMAX I scanned this weekend. I've never looked at Acros to see.

Not all manufacturers followed all standards, so it makes sense. Fujifilm still does barcodes on their 120 so their MFs do auto DX encoding but Kodak doesn't have it.

 

[Pieter12]

I haven't looked carefully at the boxes recently. I just glance at the flap to note the expiration date.

This is on the film.