Is there really a revival of analog photography

[pentaxuser]

So Helge, given your #176, any theories as to whom is responsible for the 5% increase in Ilford film sales? Presumably the 5% increase in b&w film sales must result in those 5% more of b&w films being developed somehow? Maybe, just maybe, it is not as difficult to find labs who will process b&w as you assume or the kit needed is not as much of a problem for b&w film buyers as you think..


pentaxuser

 

[Helge]

So Helge, given your #176, any theories as to whom is responsible for the 5% increase in Ilford film sales? Presumably the 5% increase in b&w film sales must result in those 5% more of b&w films being developed somehow? Maybe, just maybe, it is not as difficult to find labs who will process b&w as you assume or the kit needed is not as much of a problem for b&w film buyers as you think..


pentaxuser

Five percent is not a heck of a whole lot if it’s per year. It’s acceptable, but not optimal.
Of course there are labs that accept B&W. But mainly in larger cities.
It has also become easier to get a basic grasp of how to DIY dev.
What most people hang up on if they do manage to get all the utensils and chemistry is loading the film on to the spool.
It’s a nightmare to most beginners and continues to be, even after many tries.
Most dark bags are terrible. And procuring a dark enough room is surprisingly difficult in a modern house or apartment.
Then comes the films sweats of keeping temperature and how to agitate.
Many people approach it like it’s a religion.

Making a complete starter kit that includes a darkbox, and that holds it all and a good quality, easy load spiral would make getting into development so much more approachable and easy to wrap you mind around.

 

[pentaxuser]

So we are agreed, are we, that despite the difficulties you mention, enough new buyers of b&w have overcome these difficulties of processing b&w to make a 5% increase in sales possible?

I wonder how others here view a 5% increase in sales. It seems quite good to me and a 5% increase in a year is 20% in four years. What is a heck of a lot in a year, 6%, 8% 10% ?

It may or may not be a lot against colour film sales but I just don't know as it seems we will never know the figures for colour film sales

It may be that colour film sales increases are much better. Do you have any knowledge of this? If you do then let us know

pentaxuser

 

[alanrockwood]

As another indication of a revival of film photography, it is my impression that there are now fewer bargains on decent film cameras than there were five years ago or so. Of course, I could be wrong. What do you think?

 

[Vaughn]

As another indication of a revival of film photography, it is my impression that there are now fewer bargains on decent film cameras than there were five years ago or so. Of course, I could be wrong. What do you think?

Less cameras working than five years ago (supply/demand).

 

[Helge]

So we are agreed, are we, that despite the difficulties you mention, enough new buyers of b&w have overcome these difficulties of processing b&w to make a 5% increase in sales possible?

I wonder how others here view a 5% increase in sales. It seems quite good to me and a 5% increase in a year is 20% in four years. What is a heck of a lot in a year, 6%, 8% 10% ?

It may or may not be a lot against colour film sales but I just don't know as it seems we will never know the figures for colour film sales

It may be that colour film sales increases are much better. Do you have any knowledge of this? If you do then let us know

pentaxuser

Sure, we agree.
I’m just saying that:
A. B&W sales is a poor arbiter of the whole market.
B. It could be much better with a few small adjustments from Patterson/Ilford/Adox.

 

[Helge]

Less cameras working than five years ago (supply/demand).

Many more cameras getting dug out of cellars, closets and attics, from people eager to make a bug or what they think a fortune on their old Mju II or grandpas old Nikon.

 

[George Mann]

Many more cameras getting dug out of cellars, closets and attics, from people eager to make a bug or what they think a fortune on their old Mju II or grandpas old Nikon.

With no film to put in them currently.

 

[Ivo Stunga]

Even if they do want to shoot B&W, finding a lab or getting their own chemistry and tank and beakers and thermometer and measuring graduate etc. seems an insurmountable challenge.

Depends. There are some stores around that provide services and equipment, might be rare. Have at least 2 of them in the small Latvia.

Revival it is if you're not trying to compare what once was in 80's. It won't ever go back to that level, we have better technologies for shitty snapshots / "kodak moments". And there won't be masses of us that appreciate the quality and/or lack of anything digital in the workflow.
And despite this there are some new films introduced or old films relaunched/reformulated - that's a lifeline in this niche market, not a sign of a flatline.

 

[Helge]

On the IlfordPhoto site yesterday there was info on the Photography Show at Birmingham's National Exhibition Centre (NEC) next month and there seemed to be little there in terms of lectures, stands etc to indicate that those in the "photography business" other than Ilford's presence have yet recognised a revival in analogue matters that is of sufficient import to warrant much attention.

 

[jrhilton]

Harman Technology Limited published their results for calendar year 2020 on 4 October. They are available for free on UK Companies House for anyone to download.

Key points are as follows:

• Turnover £18.9m vs £23m in 2019
• Operating Profit £0.5m vs £2.6m in 2019
• Film sales the same as 2019 (this year they quoted film sales and not film volume which they said increased 5% in 2019). So it sounds like volume may have declined but sales flat (propped up by price increases since last year).
• Paper volume decline 47% vs 2019 (esp. stark in the USA with schools/colleges closed)
• Supporting products for film and paper did well. Revenue for processing chemicals grew by 10% and darkroom accessories by 50% (no disclosure of volume or growth excluding prince increases though).
• Gross Margin down 6.1% vs 2019, primarily due to raw material price inflation and staff cost increases.

 

[Helge]

Harman Technology Limited published their results for calendar year 2020 on 4 October. They are available for free on UK Companies House for anyone to download.

Key points are as follows:

• Turnover £18.9m vs £23m in 2019
• Operating Profit £0.5m vs £2.6m in 2019
• Film sales the same as 2019 (this year they quoted film sales and not film volume which they said increased 5% in 2019). So it sounds like volume may have declined but sales flat (propped up by price increases since last year).
• Paper volume decline 47% vs 2019 (esp. stark in the USA with schools/colleges closed)
• Supporting products for film and paper did well. Revenue for processing chemicals grew by 10% and darkroom accessories by 50% (no disclosure of volume or growth excluding prince increases though).
• Gross Margin down 6.1% vs 2019, primarily due to raw material price inflation and staff cost increases.

That’s very, very heartening and encouraging considering the shit we have been through globally during the last eighteen months.

 

[warden]

Harman Technology Limited published their results for calendar year 2020 on 4 October. They are available for free on UK Companies House for anyone to download.

Key points are as follows:

• Turnover £18.9m vs £23m in 2019
• Operating Profit £0.5m vs £2.6m in 2019
• Film sales the same as 2019 (this year they quoted film sales and not film volume which they said increased 5% in 2019). So it sounds like volume may have declined but sales flat (propped up by price increases since last year).
• Paper volume decline 47% vs 2019 (esp. stark in the USA with schools/colleges closed)
• Supporting products for film and paper did well. Revenue for processing chemicals grew by 10% and darkroom accessories by 50% (no disclosure of volume or growth excluding prince increases though).
• Gross Margin down 6.1% vs 2019, primarily due to raw material price inflation and staff cost increases.

Thanks for sharing this. I don't think meaningful conclusions about the health of the analog industries can be made with pandemic numbers, but still it's impressive that they were able to hold it together as well as they did last year. Ilford's customers are a loyal bunch, I think.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

Harman seems to be hit pretty hard with inflation. The higher the costs, the less they're going to sell lowering their profits even more. Most of the economy will follow suit. Sounds like stagflation of the 1970s. Stock up and freeze your film at today's lower prices.

 

[NB23]

Only ~20M for an industry “giant”? This is such a small amount.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

Going by the price of film cameras on ebay, I would say yes.

 

[pentaxuser]

Harman seems to be hit pretty hard with inflation. The higher the costs, the less they're going to sell lowering their profits even more. Most of the economy will follow suit. Sounds like stagflation of the 1970s. Stock up and freeze your film at today's lower prices.

The problem with this advice for the future of film, Alan, is that if we all did this for our projected needs for, say, the next 5 years or maybe even less then don't we put film companies out of business?

pentaxuser

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

The problem with this advice for the future of film, Alan, is that if we all did this for our projected needs for, say, the next 5 years or maybe even less then don't we put film companies out of business?

pentaxuser

That's a good point that moving purchases up from the future to today reduces what people will buy in the future. On the other hand, most people won't purchase earlier than they need. So those that do will save a little.

 

[Don_ih]

Stock up and freeze your film at today's lower prices.

The problem with this advice for the future of film, Alan, is that if we all did this for our projected needs for, say, the next 5 years or maybe even less then don't we put film companies out of business?

I think most people with a freezer full of film keep buying film to keep the freezer full.

 

[NB23]

I think most people with a freezer full of film keep buying film to keep the freezer full.

Exactly.
Also, another truth is that by stocking up, one invariably ends up always shooting expired goods.

 

[foc]

Harman Technology Limited published their results for calendar year 2020 on 4 October. They are available for free on UK Companies House for anyone to download.

Key points are as follows:

• Turnover £18.9m vs £23m in 2019
• Operating Profit £0.5m vs £2.6m in 2019
• Film sales the same as 2019 (this year they quoted film sales and not film volume which they said increased 5% in 2019). So it sounds like volume may have declined but sales flat (propped up by price increases since last year).
• Paper volume decline 47% vs 2019 (esp. stark in the USA with schools/colleges closed)
• Supporting products for film and paper did well. Revenue for processing chemicals grew by 10% and darkroom accessories by 50% (no disclosure of volume or growth excluding prince increases though).
• Gross Margin down 6.1% vs 2019, primarily due to raw material price inflation and staff cost increases.

Thanks for posting the figures.
As has been mentioned the £23m sounds small for "an industry giant" but the industry as a whole is small compared to the real industrial giants. Harman is a niche manufacturer.

• Turnover is down 18%. Not bad considering the pandemic etc.
• Operating Profit is down 81%. That would be a major concern to me and this is pre-Brexit.

I hope their 2021 figures (when available next year) are an improvement.

 

[George Mann]

I think most people with a freezer full of film keep buying film to keep the freezer full.

I don't have a freezer, or even a refrigerator in my campervan, but I also shoot color slide film for which the current emulsions appear to remain stable for well over a year unrefrigerated.

 

[removed account4]

I think most people with a freezer full of film keep buying film to keep the freezer full.

The problem is people with a freezer full of film expose 2 frames a weekend—the freezer was filled 14 years ago when J+C had their "moving to KC Missouri" sale.
Its the people under 30 who buy bricks of film every few weeks who are still keeping photography afloat, not some old white guys with a hats, cargo pants and a Hassy or Leica or LF camera. They're on the internet bragging to their friends with cameras about the latest lens or ex-pro gear bought, not exposing or buying film. The freezer full of film people might sell off some of their frozen stock, from time to time, not sure if they replenish it though.

 

[DREW WILEY]

What is "analog photography"? None of my cameras have pressure gauges or vacuum tubes, or anything like that. They're not lie detector machines or old fashioned crystal radio sets. I just call it photography. What all those other folks do with cell phones and so forth doesn't change my dictionary. Film was here first; why apologize for it? When someone encounters me on a trail under the darkcloth and gets interested, it's almost inevitable that they ask if I do "digital" photography too. My standard reply is, "What is that? Never heard of it". They get the point.

 

[Dwayne Martin]

Thanks for sharing this. I don't think meaningful conclusions about the health of the analog industries can be made with pandemic numbers, but still it's impressive that they were able to hold it together as well as they did last year. Ilford's customers are a loyal bunch, I think.

I know I have done my share to help keep them afloat. I will be interested to see the 2021 numbers, hope they are big.