Is there any real merit to the concepts in US Patent #5264323?

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grainyvision

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The patent makes a number of unique claims. The link is here: https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/93/a0/29/7c113f9b5953e1/US5264323.pdf

Overall interesting bits to me, specifically for lith developer formulation:

* Ascorbic acid + p-aminophenol (or a hydrazine developing agent) can produce something competitive with hydroquinone based lith developers
* A number of "known in the art" alternatives to the traditional formaldehyde-bisulfite complex. Most interesting one being "succinaldehyde bis-sodium bisulfite" which is hard to source and purify, but otherwise non-toxic both in the pure form and in the bisulfite salt form
* The most interesting and radical claim. If you include enough carbonate in the solution (>0.5 molar), it prevents oxidation by aeration (though of course does nothing for auto-oxidation), while also as expected provides a ton of buffer capacity

The last claim is especially crazy to me, given that more carbonate seems to accelerate oxidation, but I've never attempted to use such a strong solution of carbonate (basically near solubility limit). Applications could include: A stable solution of ascorbic acid in alkali, applying the same concept to hydroquinone (with a peroxide scavenger such as oxalate), a stable (non-lith) print developer could be produced using ascorbic acid + something superadditive (phenidone with lots of anti-fog?), and likely other applications.

My real question is do these concepts actually hold weight? The patent is such a late (90s) patent that it gives an excellent reference of prior art in the field, but these claims seem rather extreme to me, and completely unexplored in the home formulation game. Any chemists care to weigh in?

edit: The only developer I can think of to potentially exploit this effect is the legendary Ansco 130. It uses more carbonate in it's stock solution than the 0.5 molar threshold. It's longevity has always been upheld to be because of the use of glycin, but maybe the amount of carbonate and the fact that it's used as a stock or 1:1 solution (whereas most solutions like this would be diluted much further) is a bigger key. Creating a stable developer with so much carbonate in the working solution would definitely be a challenge regardless
 
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Alan Johnson

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I don't think this patent relates to lith developers as used for making lith prints, rather it relates mainly to the production of developers for high contrast graphic arts eg microfilming and formerly for the production of newsprint. In making lith prints infectious development involving hydroquinone occurs, the mechanism is outlined in post 8 here:
https://www.photrio.com/forum/threa...er-walls-normal-hydroquinone.5516/#post-73331
The conventional view is that the infectious development that occurs with hydroquinone is not replicated with ascorbate, see eg in the patent $22 "..solution 1 gave lower values of ...pepper fog and chemical spread.."
 

Ian Grant

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It does say in the Field of Graphic Arts and an alternative to Lith developers and the films are designed for scanning. One disadvantage of Lith films and developers is they limit very fine resolution, You only need to look at the immense improvement of image reproduction in books which really began to change in the 1980's, These are another part of the change which ins some cases is now Direct to Plate from computer generated separations from the Image scan and no need for film.

Ian
 

Alan Johnson

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The patent states $3 "The high content of carbonate decreases oxygen solubility.........." This agrees with later work which reports that oxygen solubility does decrease as the concentration of carbonate increases:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/scien... salt concentration due to salting-out effect.
However the claim $3 "...sulfite is not required to bring about a decrease in oxygen solubility as is the case with hydroquinone." seems inconsistent with the known more rapid oxidation of ascorbates although no actual measurements are reported.
 
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grainyvision

grainyvision

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The patent states $3 "The high content of carbonate decreases oxygen solubility.........." This agrees with later work which reports that oxygen solubility does decrease as the concentration of carbonate increases:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0378381201003715#:~:text=The experimental data of the solubility of oxygen,with increasing salt concentration due to salting-out effect.
However the claim $3 "...sulfite is not required to bring about a decrease in oxygen solubility as is the case with hydroquinone." seems inconsistent with the known more rapid oxidation of ascorbates although no actual measurements are reported.

This is more the interest to me, the potential of unique formulations using such concepts, rather than that an ascorbate lith printing style developer is actually possible.
 

Lachlan Young

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This is more the interest to me, the potential of unique formulations using such concepts, rather than that an ascorbate lith printing style developer is actually possible.

Do note that the patent seems to relate to direct pos lith film - the integrated nucleating agent is the giveaway - and the emulsion seems to contain an accelerator/ booster as well. The patent also states that with a non-nucleated film, the new developer and the classic developer seem to deliver largely similar results, whereas the new formulation offers advantages with the nucleated film.

I think there's probably more useful stuff to be found in patents that relate to electron pump developers - there is a very interesting Ilford patent that seems to have remarkable similarities to the fundamental (MSDS disclosed) structure of Moersch's non-lith developers, such that it leaves me wondering if his lith developers are based off very similar principles. Both that patent and this one give some interesting hints as to where Ilford's warm (& discontinued cooltone) developers may have evolved from.
 
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