Is there any possible harm to pre-wash before developing?

Philippe-Georges · Jan 22, 2024

The pre-wash as I do it is rather 'personal': Hp5+/120 for 10 min on a motorbase while I prepare the developer (dilution and temperature).
I never had a problem; the 'juice' that I pour away is so dark that it looks like black ink...
I mus say that my developing (XTOL 1+1 14min 20°C) is very even , and the film base very clear, no pinkish cast at all!

pentaxuser · Jan 22, 2024

Here's an interesting question. If I were a newcomer to film processing how would I go about processing all the replies and arrive at a decision that I know to be a safe one

pentaxuser

Philippe-Georges · Jan 22, 2024

pentaxuser said:
Here's an interesting question. If I were a newcomer to film processing how would I go about processing all the replies and arrive at a decision that I know to be a safe one

pentaxuser

Perhaps step by step and some trial and error? That's how I began to learned it some 50 years ago, and still do as it is a never ending curve, but that's a very personal opinion ofcourse...

jay moussy · Jan 22, 2024

pentaxuser said:
Here's an interesting question. If I were a newcomer to film processing how would I go about processing all the replies and arrive at a decision that I know to be a safe one

pentaxuser

Well, for someone often in that position, I would say, filter a bit by people you "know", and also study, but not necessarily follow, some of the folks into more exotic or theoretical approaches, requiring a lot of experience?

A good reference book, to confirm as well?

DREW WILEY · Jan 22, 2024

Just how many "reference books" examine the current film selection? Probably none. And just how many U-tube tutorials and so forth are worthy to be called reference material? - probably none in that case either. When in doubt, test for yourself.

mshchem · Jan 22, 2024

Simple question; Do commercial labs that process all manner of films presoak?

This [presoak] is definitely homeopathic therapy

Anon Ymous · Jan 22, 2024

mshchem said:
Simple question; Do commercial labs that process all manner of films presoak?

This [presoak] is definitely homeopathic therapy

Why would they? They use minilabs that take care of keeping everything at the right temperature. The most significant reason for presoaking is getting the film and the tank at the right temperature.

Sirius Glass · Jan 22, 2024

BorHa said:
Prewet using photoflo all the time, every time. Been doing it for over a decade and it hasn’t affected my film.

PE who recommended prewet/prewash specifically often posted not to prewash/prewet with PhotoFlo. PE, Photo Engineer, was a retired long time Kodak film engineer who spent his career doing research & development on films and developing chemicals.

mshchem · Jan 22, 2024

Anon Ymous said:
Why would they? They use minilabs that take care of keeping everything at the right temperature. The most significant reason for presoaking is getting the film and the tank at the right temperature.

I agree there. So why black and white?

mshchem · Jan 22, 2024

Professional Logician Monty Python

All trout live in trees and if you buy kippers it will not rain!

Anon Ymous · Jan 22, 2024

mshchem said:
I agree there. So why black and white?

Why not? The same reasoning applies. This and getting rid of dyes, or whatever one needs to achieve. The late Photo Engineer was a presoaking proponent. It never did any harm in my experience.

DREW WILEY · Jan 22, 2024

Why would anyone want to mimic the protocol of mini-labs, for gosh sakes? Their priority is rapid pace and high volume. Mine is optimal quality. And I often work with sheet film; they don't. There are several logical reasons to pre-soak, already mentioned.

MattKing · Jan 22, 2024

The reasons for using a pre-soak are mostly related to the particular conditions encountered with low volume processing either using inversion agitation or small volume tanks like those used with JOBO machines (or similar).

Labs tend to use either dip and dunk or high speed continuous feed technology -- if they did use pre-soaks, their experience would have to be adapted to the procedures used by most here.

Steven Lee · Jan 22, 2024

mshchem said:
However especially a Jobo tank is easy to warm up spinning for 5 minutes before you add developer.

A dry JOBO tank barely changes its internal temperature inside after only 5 minutes of spinning in a processor, which can be verified with a thermometer placed in there. You need at least 30 minutes to have the film and reels inside approach (but never quite reach) the temperature of the bath, and even that is achievable at 70F ambient. I have no idea why JOBO added this advice to their manuals. PE was right: dual-bath 101F pre-wet FTW!

pentaxuser · Jan 22, 2024

Thanks for the replies. Mine was less about me and more pertinent to what the newcomer does when faced with what appear to be contradictory replies. It is far from easy for the newcomer to sort the "wheat from the chaff" than maybe we think. He or she at that stage of his or her beginnings in photography may not be in a position to really weigh up replies in any meaningful way . Remember he or she has not had the benefit of any real experience of processes or of our replies so hasn't developed any kind of "sixth sense" as to what weight to ascribe to replies

I feel that we underestimate the difficulties we present to a newcomer who tries to sort through our replies when they can seem to represent the full spectrum of answers from the equivalent of positive to negative with little or no attempt to reconcile the differences. He or she may need "more stroking" in the interaction sense of the word than we give

To put it crudely almost every question on a forum can be answered by saying 1. Read books covering your question and 2. Experiment for yourself

Good advice in that it covers everything and cannot "per se" be wrong but usually people are on forums because they hope for more immediate answers than can be obtained from books or can be obtained easily from books and the advice in point 2 makes them very nervous. I now have a great deal of difficulty recalling just how nervous and uncertain I was about photography 22 years ago or even how nervous I am now when faced with a new "unknown" but I am better able to overcome uncertainty now being "case-hardened" from just more years of experience

None of this may apply to Jay Moussy, our OP, but as I said this was simply my pondering introspectively about how our replies help or hinder newcomers

pentaxuser

john_s · Jan 22, 2024

Nitroplait said:
I had some issues with Fujifilm 120 Neopan 400 about 15 years ago when it was still available.

The issue disappeared when I started with a two minute pre-soak. Since then I applied it to all my BW routines regardless of film brand or format.

If nothing else, I imagine it has a temp. stabilizing effect.
I have not experienced any adverse effect of pre-soaking.

That is exactly the same for me, same film! Prior to using Neopan400 in 120 size, I hadn't prerinsed and hadn't had a problem for 40 years+.

DREW WILEY · Jan 22, 2024

The whole point is to preheat the inside of the drum with a significant volume of tempered water first. That in turn if influenced by the ambient air temperature, or else the temp of the water bath the drum is rotating in. Jobo drums are relatively thin ABS plastic, so neither conduct heat ideally from a water jacket, nor insulate ideally from inside temperature loss. Therefore a distinct preheating pre-wet phase is mandatory unless your ambient air temperature itself is ideal (unlikely).

By contrast, an ideal heat-transfer material would be stainless steel; and a superior insulating material would be noryl (the kind of plastic my drums are made out of; but those were expensive, and for sake of a much heavier duty processor than a Jobo).

foc · Jan 22, 2024

Anon Ymous said:
Why would they? They use minilabs that take care of keeping everything at the right temperature. The most significant reason for presoaking is getting the film and the tank at the right temperature.

+1

NB23 · Jan 22, 2024

GregY said:
n contrast to Pioneer, I always pre-soak & use staining developers. I never worry about "wearing out my fixer early."..... for film I always use my chemicals one shot and throw away

One Liter of Fix (Hypam or rapidfix mixed at 1:4) will perfectly fix 24 rolls of films. That’s the safety range.

Why would you throw away 20 films worth of fixer after having used it to fix one batch?

Pieter12 · Jan 22, 2024

I haven't read through whatever opinions, myths and alchemy might have been posted to date, but I learned to presoak and no longer do so unless instructed by the film manufacturer, such as Bergger:

Ilford, for example does not recommend presoaking for HP5+ at least:

DREW WILEY · Jan 22, 2024

5 minutes presoak seems a bit ridiculous. Bergger didn't invent PMK anyway. And as far as Ilford goes, I presoaked HP5 100% of the time, about 2 min, with totally consistent results in PMK.

AnselMortensen · Jan 22, 2024

I use a Stearman Press 8x10 setup.
Pre-soaking is mandatory, according to Stearman Press.
Ilford recommends NO pre-soak for HP5+
Conundrum Alert!

I pre-soak.
I haven't had any issues.
YMMV.

Augustus Caesar · Jan 22, 2024

pentaxuser said:
Here's an interesting question. If I were a newcomer to film processing how would I go about processing all the replies and arrive at a decision that I know to be a safe one

pentaxuser

Uhmmmm. don't. Follow the manufacturer's recommendations. Usually they are correct.

https://imaging.kodakalaris.com/sites/default/files/files/resources/AJ-3.pdf

Rolleiflexible · Jan 22, 2024

Steven Lee said:
A dry JOBO tank barely changes its internal temperature inside after only 5 minutes of spinning in a processor, which can be verified with a thermometer placed in there. You need at least 30 minutes to have the film and reels inside approach (but never quite reach) the temperature of the bath, and even that is achievable at 70F ambient. I have no idea why JOBO added this advice to their manuals. PE was right: dual-bath 101F pre-wet FTW!

My recollection is that JOBO advised presoaking to offset the increased agitation in a rotary process. The logic was that the water would permeate the emulsion, and that would restrain development a bit. This is from memory. I don’t have a source to cite.

Also, I prewash before developing b&w roll film using semi-stand development in Rodinal. Somewhere along the way I read that it aids in the even development of film in that process. Again, I write from memory. In practice it has always worked for me.

Rolleiflexible · Jan 22, 2024

Here, for example:

Jobo with pre-rinse - reduced development time?

I will be using home-brew Perceptol in my Jobo and Ilford says to reduce the developing time by up to 15% in a rotary processor. What about for pre-rinse? I use a pre-rinse with my Jobo simply because Jobo recommends it (I don't use a pre-rinse with inversion tanks just so I can be on both...

www.photrio.com

There’s a wealth of accumulated experience in the site’s archives. FWIW I would put far more weight in PE’s advice over anything I might read from current sources.

PS: I see I just crossed the 2k post line. Apologies: I will try to be more restrained over the next 20 years than I was over the past 20.

Is there any possible harm to pre-wash before developing?

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