Is there a relationship between the developer concentration and the grain size?

[Henry Alive]

I usually work with 35 mm TX400 and HC110, E concentration (1:47) at 20ªC. The developer time is 6 minutes. Do you know how the grain size would change if I work with a higher dissolution (1:63, for example). I am looking for a very small grain photo in order to print in 12 x 16 Ilford paper.
I also want to ask suggestions for another film and/or developer combo in order to get no grain. I am thinking in Tmax 400 (probably at EI 250) with an appropriate developer.
Thanks for your comments,
Henry.

 

[Ian Grant]

Yes and No

There can be with some types of developer, mainly the D76 and other Buffered Borax/High Sulphite types, dilute to 1+3 these developer give better acutance but slightly increased grain.

Then there's the high pH developers often collectively called Universal, when more concentrated say 1+9 they are highly active and giv more grain than when dilute to 1+29 or more.

There's no hard & fast rules, but in this case dilution will help slightly. Xtol will give better results.

Ian

 

[Christiaan Phleger]

As well, the switch from Tri-X to the New TMY-2 will be a big reduction in grain.

 

[fschifano]

I've never used HC-110 for TMY in 35 mm, so I can't comment about the apparent grain or lack thereof with that combination. My developers of choice for TMY are XTOL and D-76. XTOL will edge D-76 out slightly, but either will give fine enough grain to accomplish your goal and deliver box speed to boot.

 

[2F/2F]

Increasing the dilution will increase the graininess, with HC-110 and any other developer I have used.

T-Max film in Kodak T-Max, Kodak X-Tol, or Ilford DDX developer will probably give the least graininess without having to re rate your film. They will also give the best compromise between graininess and sharpness. While Ilford Perceptol would likely give slightly lower graininess than either of them, it would not be as sharp, and you would likely lose contrast and have to down rate your film. I love Perceptol for some things, but almost never in small format. It is just not sharp enough for me, unless using Pan F (which I use at EI 16 with Perceptol).

This all being said, with emulsion selection and print size being the constants, the single most effective thing you can do to really reduce graininess in prints is to simply use larger film. If I were routinely making 12x16 prints, wanted to use 400 film, really wanted as little grain as possible, and the subject matter allowed it, I would use a medium format camera...at a minimum! I'd preferably use large format if the subject allowed it.

You can also, of course, use a slower film. However, I assume your subject matter will not allow it, or else you would not have mentioned T-Max 400.

 

[Anscojohn]

With D76 and D23, grain increases somewhat if the soup is diluted. My undertanding is that, with those film developers, the sodium sulfite (which acts as a silver sovent) concentrate is reduced to a level where there are less solvent and plating effects.

 

[Bruce Watson]

I usually work with 35 mm TX400 and HC110, E concentration (1:47) at 20ªC. The developer time is 6 minutes. Do you know how the grain size would change if I work with a higher dilution (1:63, for example). I am looking for a very small grain photo in order to print in 12 x 16 Ilford paper.

Like most things, it depends. When you dilute developer, you do a handful of things. You dilute any solvents in the developer. You change the pH a bit. You lengthen development time. Etc. When you sort it all out (that is, when you finally sit down and do the actual testing required to learn how it actually works) you'll likely find out that dilution will increase graininess a bit, and increase sharpness a bit. The combined effect in the final print is often very difficult to detect. I found, for example, that I needed to go to about 15x enlargement to see the difference in the final print between Tri-X in HC-110B, and Tri-X in HC-110H. But since I never enlarge beyond about 12x, I can't actually see it in my final prints.

This leads to people like me saying that the primary reason to dilute developer is to control development time.

I also want to ask suggestions for another film and/or developer combo in order to get no grain. I am thinking in Tmax 400 (probably at EI 250) with an appropriate developer.

Without grain, there *is* no image. Resign yourself to grain; it's a *requirement* of using film.

That said, the things you can do to minimize grain, in order of importance (and of course, IMHO):

1) Go up in format size.
2) Choose a smaller grain film (that is, slower).
3) Choose a t-grain film.
4) Choose a solvent developer (my personal favorite: XTOL)

There are more, but beyond these the effects drop off markedly. These are, IMHO, the "biggies."

Personally, I use 5x4 TMY-2 in XTOL. I'm stunned every sheet of film I pull. It's hard to believe that photography can be this good.

 

[timk]

I notice Rodinal is more grainy at 1+25 than it is at 1+50 or 1+100, so yes with certain developers there is a relationship.

 

[RobertV]

Rodinal in 1+25 looks more grainy but it isn't. Rodinal in higher dilutions gives some stain which makes it look better in less grain. Further the acutance and sharpness is going up in higher dilutions. Para Amino Phenol works best with classical cubical type films of slow and medium speed like APX100/Rollei Retro 100, Efke 25, Rollei Pan 25 (Orwo NP15). By less agitation you keep the grain small too and work to maximum acutance.
So in this way Rodinal is a very typical developer.

Rollei Retro 100 (135-36) in Rodinal 1+50

 

[JonPorter]

You won't see a difference in grain going from HC-110 1:47 to 1:60. I develop Tri-X/TMY at 1:47 for general subjects and 1:60 when shooting in very contrasty lighting. But I expose both films (35mm and 120) at EI 250, so that may make a difference. My development time for both is 9 minutes at 68 degrees. My development time may be longer than yours due to my more gentle agitation technique: 15 inversions initial/5 inversions every other minute.

To get finer grain, I'd also suggest trying TMY-2. I don't currently have a darkroom, so I've never made any photo prints from TMY-2 negatives -- only inkjet prints -- but I get results I like slightly better from scanned (Epson V700/SilverFast) TMY-2 rather than Tri-X.

 

[Henry Alive]

Thank you very much. As always, all of you have been very helpful. I am going to start taking photos with TMY400 and developing with both HC110 (E) and D76 (1:1). I will comment the results promptly.
Henry.