Is there a downside of storing a loaded film holder with film in the fridge or freezer?

[Radost]

Is there a downside of storing a loaded film holder with film in the fridge or freezer?
Also fridge vs freezer?

 

[MattKing]

Condensation!

 

[Sirius Glass]

I live in a very dry climate so condensation is not a problem, but I do question why someone would do that.

 

[Radost]

A movie friend of mine told me vision 3 goes bad faster than still negative.

 

[xkaes]

A movie friend of mine told me .....

That's all the proof I need.

 

[pentaxuser]

A movie friend of mine told me vision 3 goes bad faster than still negative.

I take it that this means that Vision 3 colour film deteriorates faster in terms of shelf life than C41 film? Did he say how much faster and what the tests were that demonstrate this?

Thanks

pentaxuser

 

[Radost]

That's all the proof I need.

It’s his actual job. Maybe cinema film workflow has higher standards.

 

[MattKing]

Movie film is marketed to a much more demanding user - and one who is generally more able to control the conditions that film is stored and used in. And the people who handle film in the movie industry would not store it in a loaded magazine in a refrigerator or freezer.
There used to be two different versions of many Kodak still films - a standard version and a "professional" version. The "professional" version was designed with the expectation that film would be stored and used under more controlled conditions - primarily with respect to time and heat, but also humidity. The standard version was designed with the expectation that film would be stored and used under more variable conditions - within a longer time frame, and more variability with respect to heat and humidity - potentially at the expense of some colour fidelity.
The motion picture films are more similar to the old "professional" versions of the still films in terms of expectations.
There is no longer enough volume in the market to provide two versions of the still films. In addition, the modern still films are a bit more robust - because they need to be.
For long term storage of film, still in its original packaging, a freezer makes sense. A refrigerator also will help extend the life.
But if you have taken the film out of its original packaging, and in particular if you are accessing the film regularly, a bulk loader is not the container that should be going in and out of a freezer or refrigerator - even in a low humidity environment. The regular change of temperature is the problem.
The best way to keep opened film is in a cool and relatively dry location where there is little change in temperature. I favour under the bed, in a temperate room.

 

[Ballinderry-Michael]

For a while I kept my loaders refrigerated, inside ziplock bags. To avoid condensation, I'd take a bag out and leave it for at least an hour, to become chambré before opening it. I don't remember any problems.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

Movie film is marketed to a much more demanding user - and one who is generally more able to control the conditions that film is stored and used in. And the people who handle film in the movie industry would not store it in a loaded magazine in a refrigerator or freezer.
There used to be two different versions of many Kodak still films - a standard version and a "professional" version. The "professional" version was designed with the expectation that film would be stored and used under more controlled conditions - primarily with respect to time and heat, but also humidity. The standard version was designed with the expectation that film would be stored and used under more variable conditions - within a longer time frame, and more variability with respect to heat and humidity - potentially at the expense of some colour fidelity.
The motion picture films are more similar to the old "professional" versions of the still films in terms of expectations.
There is no longer enough volume in the market to provide two versions of the still films. In addition, the modern still films are a bit more robust - because they need to be.
For long term storage of film, still in its original packaging, a freezer makes sense. A refrigerator also will help extend the life.
But if you have taken the film out of its original packaging, and in particular if you are accessing the film regularly, a bulk loader is not the container that should be going in and out of a freezer or refrigerator - even in a low humidity environment. The regular change of temperature is the problem.
The best way to keep opened film is in a cool and relatively dry location where there is little change in temperature. I favour under the bed, in a temperate room.

Matt, My freezer drops down to -10F (-12C). Is that too cold? It will vary on its own from about -6F to -12F. Once I open the 4x5 box, I wont put it back into the freezer but keep it in a controlled space - my house that stays fairly constant in temperature although humidity varies. I do keep the opened box inside a closed Ziplock bag with a silica desiccant pack.

How are these measures?

 

[MattKing]

This is what I generally refer to:
https://imaging.kodakalaris.com/sites/default/files/wysiwyg/pro/CIS_E30.pdf
-10F is very cold - and is actually closer to -23C.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

This is what I generally refer to:
https://imaging.kodakalaris.com/sites/default/files/wysiwyg/pro/CIS_E30.pdf
-10F is very cold - and is actually closer to -23C.

Can film handle that?

 

[MattKing]

Can film handle that?

Undoubtedly.
The real question is whether it is sub-optimal - whether film stored at slightly warmer temperatures is likely to be better.
Issues respecting the response of the packaging and/or things like spools or cassettes or backing paper and their response to the extremely cold temperatures probably also need to be considered.
FWIW, the recommendations for cold storage of historic films and photographs - the already developed ones - specify a temperature range between 10F and 32F.

 

[Radost]

Maybe a better solution will be to bulk load bunch of cassettes and find a way to hermetically close it in the freezer.
And this is strictly for my thungsten film.

 

[Radost]

I have a food vacuum machine. Maybe that would work with cassetes

 

[RalphLambrecht]

Is there a downside of storing a loaded film holder with film in the fridge or freezer?
Also fridge vs freezer?

not if you take special care of bringing it back to ambient temp before using it again; otherwise condensation will ruin your film. And you do that by putting it into a plastic zip-lock bag before putting it into the freezer and letting it come back to ambient in the bag too.

 

[Sirius Glass]

not if you take special care of bringing it back to ambient temp before using it again; otherwise condensation will ruin your film. And you do that by putting it into a plastic zip-lock bag before putting it into the freezer and letting it come back to ambient in the bag too.

In the desert or southern California that is not a problem. In Florida would be a problem. That is what the desicant bags are recycled for.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

Undoubtedly.
The real question is whether it is sub-optimal - whether film stored at slightly warmer temperatures is likely to be better.
Issues respecting the response of the packaging and/or things like spools or cassettes or backing paper and their response to the extremely cold temperatures probably also need to be considered.
FWIW, the recommendations for cold storage of historic films and photographs - the already developed ones - specify a temperature range between 10F and 32F.

I'm not going to raise my freezer temps so I guess I'm stuck with the lower setting. Thanks.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

not if you take special care of bringing it back to ambient temp before using it again; otherwise condensation will ruin your film. And you do that by putting it into a plastic zip-lock bag before putting it into the freezer and letting it come back to ambient in the bag too.

It shouldn't make a difference if the inner plastic seal hasn't been broken and the film package opened, should it?

 

[koraks]

It shouldn't make a difference if the inner plastic seal hasn't been broken and the film package opened, should it?

Assuming absolutely no moisture would be in the package, which generally is not something you can rely on.

 

[guangong]

Movie film is marketed to a much more demanding user - and one who is generally more able to control the conditions that film is stored and used in. And the people who handle film in the movie industry would not store it in a loaded magazine in a refrigerator or freezer.
There used to be two different versions of many Kodak still films - a standard version and a "professional" version. The "professional" version was designed with the expectation that film would be stored and used under more controlled conditions - primarily with respect to time and heat, but also humidity. The standard version was designed with the expectation that film would be stored and used under more variable conditions - within a longer time frame, and more variability with respect to heat and humidity - potentially at the expense of some colour fidelity.
The motion picture films are more similar to the old "professional" versions of the still films in terms of expectations.
There is no longer enough volume in the market to provide two versions of the still films. In addition, the modern still films are a bit more robust - because they need to be.
For long term storage of film, still in its original packaging, a freezer makes sense. A refrigerator also will help extend the life.
But if you have taken the film out of its original packaging, and in particular if you are accessing the film regularly, a bulk loader is not the container that should be going in and out of a freezer or refrigerator - even in a low humidity environment. The regular change of temperature is the problem.
The best way to keep opened film is in a cool and relatively dry location where there is little change in temperature. I favour under the bed, in a temperate room.

In the old days B&H used to sell outdated professional film at a very good discount. The use by date set by Kodak must have been very tight because I never had a single bad experience with slightly outdated film.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

In the old days B&H used to sell outdated professional film at a very good discount. The use by date set by Kodak must have been very tight because I never had a single bad experience with slightly outdated film.

B&H used to have huge refrigerators for their film at their store in Manhattan. Not sure if they do that anymore.

 

[guangong]

B&H used to have huge refrigerators for their film at their store in Manhattan. Not sure if they do that anymore.

I was referring to an earlier store on lower east side or east village.

 

[eli griggs]

I would chose to use a food vacuum and the heavy plastic containers it produces, if I had one but I do no and I've found heavy duty gallon freezer bags work well for most storage but, the heaver still vacuum packing should give even better protection, IMO.

 

[DREW WILEY]

I would never try something like that, in any climate, unless it was via what radost and eli just suggested - a vac system with a built-in polybag heat-seal tacker. I actually bought one of those systems, but never used it! They're made for DIY freeze-drying of foods. Zip Lok bags aren't safe enough.

You also need to be aware that ABS plastic - the main component of most sheet film holders - gets brittle at very low temperatures, approaching 0 F. Probably most freezers don't go that low. WE outdoor types do get into those kinds of severe weather conditions. I've never cracked a holder due to it, but have had a Pelican ABS gear case crack in the cold.