Is there a definitive focal length for tight head shots...

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Yashinoff

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Yes, you are forgiven provided you also forgive me for saying that I feel like the person who tried to teach the pig to sing. Hopefully others will reach some sort of understanding on the well-known issue of proper viewing distance.

Well known and useful are two different things. :wink: Is it true? I would not deny it. Is it worth worrying about, let alone practical or worthwhile to somehow implement or enforce? I would not say so. It is one of the silliest things to consider in displaying a print I've ever heard of. Stand so close that you cannot comfortably view the entire print at once to cancel out wide angle distortions? We have to treat the photos as optical illusions now just because we can't come to terms with a flat image? Astonishing.
 

markbarendt

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Forgive me for typing this, but that is an absolutely absurd thing to be concerned about. What next? What if the viewer stands closer to the right side of the photo than to the left? Should we keystone the image to effectively correct the perspective for them? Nonsense. Much ado about nothing.

Yashinoff, it is true that we can't control where the viewer stands, but when we understand what people normally do, and where they will normally try to be, then we can use that info to make prints that look good from there.

One thing people generally seem to do is center themselves when actively viewing prints or paintings.

As to much ado about nothing. Photographers worry a lot about things that viewers see as trivial or even irrelevant or simply don't care about, things like: grain, fiber versus RC paper, DD-X versus ID-11, T-Max versus Delta versus Acros, 35mm versus 4x5, Pictorialist versus f64...

They don't need to know, it is helpful though when we do.
 
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Mr Bill

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Well known and useful are two different things.

I certainly agree with this. Useful? Yes, I think so. I think that perhaps you have never experienced the effect of "realness" in a photo, or if you have, did not realize what it was. Otherwise you wouldn't be saying this.

I first experienced this at about the age of 11 or 12 years, sitting in a school classroom. I was bored silly, and happened to have a magnifying lens (for burning ants at recess, I guess). I used it to look at a small photo in my geography book, or whatever it was, and was surprised at how realistic it seemed (the photo was very non-descript at its normal size). I spent the rest of the class looking at all the photos in the book, and perhaps 1/3 had this efffect. The effect was incredible enough that I didn't forget it. You say, is it worth it? Well you can guess my answer.

Stand so close that you cannot comfortably view the entire print at once to cancel out wide angle distortions?

Prints like this are enjoyable to stand close to while you look around the image; you feel as though you are in the scene. Should you stand very close to a large print and it is NOT enjoyable to scan around the print, you can feel comfortable that it was not a wide-angle shot.

I am not suggesting that you have an exhibit, labeling each photo such as "Look at this image with one eye closed, from a distance of 23 inches and 4 inches to the left of center." What I WOULD suggest is this: if you exhibit two photos side-by-side, and one is with a "normal" lens and the other is with a wide-angle lens, then perhaps the normal-lens shot would be printed to 11x14 inches, while the wide-angle shot is printed to 16x20 inches. Or if you are commissioned to shoot a mural, you should shoot with the appropriate wide-angle lens.

But all this talk is for naught if you're not ready to swallow the idea. I realize you don't know who I am - maybe I'm just some rummy or Internet know-it-all. That's why I gave some literature references. If you want to try the idea farther, I'd suggest go to a photo exhibit, if there are any in your area. (If not, magazines work, but you'd likely need a low power magnifier.) If there are any photos you like, try moving forward and back several feet to see if you can find a zone where there is a stronger sense of "realness," as though you are actually there. (The sense is stronger if the photos have some "depth cues" in them; plain jane portraits maybe not so much.) If you find that you can notice this, great, you should investigate the idea further. If you can't notice it, well I dunno. I've done this experiment with coworkers at photo trade shows which had exhibits. Most could notice the effect even if they didn't care (they're IT guys or the like), but there were one or two who didn't seem to be able to tell. Perhaps they could learn if they wanted to, perhaps they just don't care at all, I dunno.
 

Old-N-Feeble

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So... we should only print ultra-wide-angle images very large and/or view them from very close-up. And only print images shot with ultra-long lenses postage-stamp size and/or view them from across the street. Got it.:confused: :whistling:
 

cliveh

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We should not think in terms of photographic rules, but as a guide, as the context and subject often dictate the lens and distance we may use. Are we photographing a group of Russian clowns or members of the government (not much difference I know), But rules were made for the guidance of wise men and the obedience of fools.
 

markbarendt

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I'm probably way off here as I don't do any portrait photography, but when taking the portrait isn't it the distance between camera and subject that dictates the perspective rendering, and then the choice of lens is essentially a framing/cropping choice? Ignoring optical aberrations, for a fixed film to subject distance, changing focal lengths does not change perspective, only cropping. If film had infinite resolution and no grain, all you'd need is one short focal length rectilinear lens and you could just crop under the enlarger.

Yes, distance to subject sets up the angular relationships to the camera.

So, if the distance to the subject is the same, say 6', and the subject is printed the same size in separate prints, then both prints should have the same perspective.

The print sizes would be radically different if un-cropped.

If both prints were viewed from 6' then they both would look "normal". If viewed from 3' they both would exhibit "flattening". Viewed from 12' both would bulge in the middle. (Albeit, the small print from the long lens wouldn't normally be viewed at that distance.)
 

Mr Bill

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I'm probably way off here as I don't do any portrait photography, but when taking the portrait isn't it the distance between camera and subject that dictates the perspective rendering, and then the choice of lens is essentially a framing/cropping choice?

You're not way off, you're exactly right as far as it goes. People still need to see the result. (You might realize that if you could put your eye up to the camera lens and see the image inside, this is the ideal viewing condition.)

Print size and viewing distance are near as simple - the difficulty is trying to explain it to people. I think you'll get it simply from looking at the attached drawing (I hope I can attach it). Maybe you can help explain how it works.
PC163619.JPG
Background on the drawing - It's from the book Freehand Drawing, Self-Taught, by Arthur Guptill in 1933. The "tracing on glass" routine is a preliminary exercise for the drawing student to become acquanted with proper perspective. The dashed lines can be taken to show a camera's field of view to a subject, the sheet of glass can be taken to represent a print showing proper perspective.

ps; reason for THIS book: it belonged to my father; a couple years ago I came across it and was looking through it. Some text and drawings looked familiar, and as I thought about it, I partially recalled and realized that THIS was the book that helped me, as a schoolboy, get my first understanding of perspective (I needed to know this to draw army tanks and jet airplanes shooting at each other). This particular sketch is as good as anything I've seen in getting across the idea of proper perspective in photographic prints.
 
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Ian C

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Regarding post #82

Yes, distance to subject sets up the angular relationships to the camera.

So, if the distance to the subject is the same, say 6', and the subject is printed the same size in separate prints, then both prints should have the same perspective.

The print sizes would be radically different if un-cropped.

In the 1980s the US photo magazine Modern Photography published at least one article showing 35mm SLR photos of the same scene shot from the same camera position through three different lenses: normal, wide angle, and telephoto.

The normal and wide angle shots were then cropped so that the same areas at the same size were printed side by side in each shot. The only differences were in apparent grain due to the differences in magnification to make the selected areas of the normal and wide angle shots the same size as the telephoto shot. There was no difference in the apparent perspective. It was a convincing demonstration of the fact that scene perspective is controlled by lens-to-subject (or eye-to-subject) distance and no other factor.
 
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