Is the Leica an "Investment?"

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summicron1

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not sure how this went from leicas to homes, but you guys touting over buying are missing one thing:

Rent a home, 30 years down the pike the number MAY work out in your favor when you consider maintenance, interest and all that other crud.

but

BUY a house and pay it off (which I also strongly advocate, as quickly as possible interest is evil) and you have one thing nobody else has: No matter what happens -- job loss, sickness, financial collapse, whatever, you have a roof over your head.

the utilities may be shut off, it may be dark, but by god, it's yours. And as Steinbeck once observed, anyone who has a yard for a garden need not starve.

And once you buy a leica you don't need another camera, either. Value in the long run.
 

darkosaric

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And once you buy a leica you don't need another camera, either. Value in the long run.

After shooting with nikon for some time I wanted to buy a rangefinder. I got minolta hi-matic, it was good, but no manual settings, so I get rid of it. I got Yashica links 14 then, but it was to big and not very handy in usage. Then I got zorki 4 and some other soviet cameras - they were terrible. I got minox - shutter died. And list goes on.

I wish I got Leica in the first place, it would be much cheaper and less stressful. Now when I have M6 and M3 I know that there is no need for another rangefinder camera in my life.
 

Sirius Glass

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I agree with all the post, and I arrive to say that also regarding houses smart people earn interest instead of paying it.
I mean that if people knew some financial mathematics they would easily understand that it is much cheaper to rent a house, and save and invest the difference between rent and mortgage, than paying a mortgage.

Both times I bought houses with in five years or less, it was cheaper to pay a loan then rent.

Mortgages make people poor. Buy a house when you have the money to pay it cash, I say. A mortgage is a way to pay interest on a large capital. Saving is a way to earn interest. A mortgage instalment is much bigger than a rent for the same house if the market is in a normal state. The monthly difference, properly invested for the long term, will buy a house faster than the mortgage.

I have had my present house since 2001. In the first five years, it doubled its value. In the last five years with the Great Baby Bush Depression, the value has increased 30% more. It is all about location, location, location.
 

StoneNYC

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Both times I bought houses with in five years or less, it was cheaper to pay a loan then rent.



I have had my present house since 2001. In the first five years, it doubled its value. In the last five years with the Great Baby Bush Depression, the value has increased 30% more. It is all about location, location, location.

+1 :smile: congrats too!


~Stone

Mamiya: 7 II, RZ67 Pro II / Canon: 1V, AE-1, 5DmkII / Kodak: No 1 Pocket Autographic, No 1A Pocket Autographic | Sent w/ iPhone using Tapatalk
 

TheFlyingCamera

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I think it also important to recognize that Luxury is not synonymous with quality.

Absolutely - there are plenty of "luxury" goods that are too finicky/fussy/delicate/fragile to be useful. Fortunately in the camera world for the most part that's not true. And then there's some luxury goods that never made sense, like the gold-plated and lizard-skinned RB67. That's like putting a $30,000 paint job on a Ford F150 pickup truck. Great tool, devoted following, but nobody is ever going to confuse it with a Hassy or a Leica. Nor would they want to.
 

lxdude

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BUY a house and pay it off (which I also strongly advocate, as quickly as possible interest is evil) and you have one thing nobody else has: No matter what happens -- job loss, sickness, financial collapse, whatever, you have a roof over your head.
Unless you don't pay your property taxes.:blink::wink:
 

MattKing

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Diapositivo, your calculations are ignoring a very large factor - risk.

The purchase of a home hedges the risk (borne by a renter) of rising home values and hence, rising rent. There is value in having one's housing expenses relatively fixed for a number of years, as provided by a mortgage. Further, in assuming your investments will be profitable, you also dismiss the risk of your skill in choosing investments that will (as you do recognize in the case of land) go up, down, or stay the same.

There is another thing to be said for real estate - they ain't making any more of it.

In addition, Diapositivo's calculations assume that the market includes a good supply of rental stock.

In our corner of the world, it is cheaper for many people to buy then rent, if they have the requisite down payment (minimum 5%). That is due to the fact that rental properties are in short supply.

We don't have access to mortgages with terms of 25 or 30 years here - 5 years is as long as the government mortgage insurance programs will cover. We use approximately the same 25 - 30 year amortization periods (the interest compounding is calculated slightly differently).

The current competitive mortgage market makes it relatively easy to get a 3% rate on your 5 year term, 25 year amortization fixed mortgages.
 

tkamiya

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There are several rules I go by....

Never confuse investment and hobby purchases....
Luxury purchase with any types of loan - NO!
Use credit card but always pay off in full
Save first and enjoy the rest - they are equally important
Buy the best and buy once

... so NO, I will not and would not have purchased Leica on credit especially if I already had a balance on credit card.
I think OP made a wise choice to sell and pay off the debt first.
 

StoneNYC

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Absolutely - there are plenty of "luxury" goods that are too finicky/fussy/delicate/fragile to be useful. Fortunately in the camera world for the most part that's not true. And then there's some luxury goods that never made sense, like the gold-plated and lizard-skinned RB67. That's like putting a $30,000 paint job on a Ford F150 pickup truck. Great tool, devoted following, but nobody is ever going to confuse it with a Hassy or a Leica. Nor would they want to.

Plenty of people have confused my Mamiya RZ67 for a Hassy, happens all the time haha.

Sometimes my Mamiya 7 is a Leica too, I just say yes when they ask with amazement lol.


~Stone

Mamiya: 7 II, RZ67 Pro II / Canon: 1V, AE-1, 5DmkII / Kodak: No 1 Pocket Autographic, No 1A Pocket Autographic | Sent w/ iPhone using Tapatalk
 

StoneNYC

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In addition, Diapositivo's calculations assume that the market includes a good supply of rental stock.

In our corner of the world, it is cheaper for many people to buy then rent, if they have the requisite down payment (minimum 5%). That is due to the fact that rental properties are in short supply.

We don't have access to mortgages with terms of 25 or 30 years here - 5 years is as long as the government mortgage insurance programs will cover. We use approximately the same 25 - 30 year amortization periods (the interest compounding is calculated slightly differently).

The current competitive mortgage market makes it relatively easy to get a 3% rate on your 5 year term, 25 year amortization fixed mortgages.

Canada?


~Stone

Mamiya: 7 II, RZ67 Pro II / Canon: 1V, AE-1, 5DmkII / Kodak: No 1 Pocket Autographic, No 1A Pocket Autographic | Sent w/ iPhone using Tapatalk
 

Diapositivo

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I don't know the specificities of the US markets. Taxes and government favouring home buying might distort the market.

When you invest a sum you invest it in something that intrinsically yields something. A sheep yields wool, a cow yields milk. A house yields a rent (if you live in your own house it yields a figurative rent) but that, historically, is far below the average return on capital on, let's say, the stock exchange. I mean the average sheep (or manufacturing etc.) historically yields more than the average house.

When you invest money (let's say in the stock exchange, and you go for high-dividend shares, e.g. you buy utilities, oil pipes etc.) you diversify. It's easy to make a portfolio in which no single investment is more than let's say 3% of your capital. The "risk" of the wise investor is spread among various firms and various sectors and countries.

If the mortgage is cheaper than the rent then there must be some force in the market distorting prices (for instance, tax deductions on the interest of the mortgage being higher than tax deductions on rent). I agree that if and when the mortgage is lower than the rent (no down payment considered) it would be foolish to rent.

Your house needs a flow of money just to preserve its value. This is normally considered to be around 15% of the annual rent. You then have taxes normally (I don't know in the US).

In my country the economic condition are set in deep favour of renting, yet we have one of the greatest percentages of home owners in the world and people consider rent to be "wasted money". It's entirely a cultural, prejudicial distortion in my view. There's a huge amount of second houses (mostly kept empty as "reserve of value" under the assumption that "houses always go up" which are now heavily taxed).

The desirability of a house (quarter, zone etc.) is more unpredictable than the stock exchange. In the very long run, the stock exchange will inevitably raise in value (because Homo oeconomicus creates value, capitalism creates value) while house value is largely dependent on demographic phenomena and movements.

In the last decades, all over the world people moved from the countryside to the town. That made the value of town houses to rise and, very importantly and frequently omitted, the value of countryside houses to fall. We have "phantom villages" in Italy as well, those houses are investments which was totally destroyed by demographic movements. We cannot exclude that internet will cause a contrary movement, from town to countryside, reversing the house value trend of the last decades.

But my point was different. If you believe in real estate, normally (tax distortions and bubble busting aside) investing in real estate and renting will yield you more in any case. You mileage may vary depending on your local house market, your tax laws etc. obviously.
 

pbromaghin

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We don't have access to mortgages with terms of 25 or 30 years here - 5 years is as long as the government mortgage insurance programs will cover. We use approximately the same 25 - 30 year amortization periods (the interest compounding is calculated slightly differently).

So, are you stuck with balloons after 5? Most mortgages in the US are not insured by the government. VA and FHA used to be advantageous, but not so much any more.
 

StoneNYC

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Again where are you getting your info?

Stock investments yield way less over a long period (10 years example) than home prices and the home prices are more stable and predictable than stock and MUCH more predictable than investing in commodities which can put you belly up if you invest in say corn and then the corn crop dies from an epidemic... (which happens a lot sadly).

Home loan payments are less than rental for a number of reasons (it's not always true but often true) one reason being that the people who own the rental properties also have mortgages on the homes and so they have to cover the cost of the mortgage PLUS make some profit, so the rental price is higher than the mortgage price, it's just that many renters don't have the money for a down payment of 20% in order to get a mortgage, or don't have good enough credit to get a loan.

I do believe in some diversity, that at least we agree on, but overall the home values are often much higher than stock value increases.

Yes there are tax benefits as well, and they are significant in the US so that helps. You can also "roll" over your mortgage if you upgrade your house without paying any capital gains tax.

I don't know about your country, here... I'll just use my house as an example, the 2 family I have, in a dilapidated neighborhood, (which means the rental prices are actually good for renters and bad for landlords) my house mortgage per month is $2,300 on a 30 year mortgage, that includes taxes and insurance cost. .. the downstairs rent is $1,000 and the upstairs rent is $1,600 which yields $2,600 - $2,300 = $300 profit per month = $3,600 per year - $2,000 average maintenance = $1,600 net profit... this covers the home cost and then a little extra. 20 years from now that will sell for at LEAST $500,000 if not more and I've only invested $5,000 total to buy, fix up, refinance, and rent.

NOW that is based on a 2 family house, but say I lived in the first apartment, I would only be paying even after maintenance $866 per month if I lived there instead of rented to someone.

It's still cheaper than rent, and an investment in the future.

I was pretty good at stocks too, but made way less than on the house.

The market fell out everywhere and yes I lost my shirt, but in the long haul it will be better than having rented.

I don't know the specificities of the US markets. Taxes and government favouring home buying might distort the market.

When you invest a sum you invest it in something that intrinsically yields something. A sheep yields wool, a cow yields milk. A house yields a rent (if you live in your own house it yields a figurative rent) but that, historically, is far below the average return on capital on, let's say, the stock exchange. I mean the average sheep (or manufacturing etc.) historically yields more than the average house.

When you invest money (let's say in the stock exchange, and you go for high-dividend shares, e.g. you buy utilities, oil pipes etc.) you diversify. It's easy to make a portfolio in which no single investment is more than let's say 3% of your capital. The "risk" of the wise investor is spread among various firms and various sectors and countries.

If the mortgage is cheaper than the rent then there must be some force in the market distorting prices (for instance, tax deductions on the interest of the mortgage being higher than tax deductions on rent). I agree that if and when the mortgage is lower than the rent (no down payment considered) it would be foolish to rent.

Your house needs a flow of money just to preserve its value. This is normally considered to be around 15% of the annual rent. You then have taxes normally (I don't know in the US).

In my country the economic condition are set in deep favour of renting, yet we have one of the greatest percentages of home owners in the world and people consider rent to be "wasted money". It's entirely a cultural, prejudicial distortion in my view. There's a huge amount of second houses (mostly kept empty as "reserve of value" under the assumption that "houses always go up" which are now heavily taxed).

The desirability of a house (quarter, zone etc.) is more unpredictable than the stock exchange. In the very long run, the stock exchange will inevitably raise in value (because Homo oeconomicus creates value, capitalism creates value) while house value is largely dependent on demographic phenomena and movements.

In the last decades, all over the world people moved from the countryside to the town. That made the value of town houses to rise and, very importantly and frequently omitted, the value of countryside houses to fall. We have "phantom villages" in Italy as well, those houses are investments which was totally destroyed by demographic movements. We cannot exclude that internet will cause a contrary movement, from town to countryside, reversing the house value trend of the last decades.

But my point was different. If you believe in real estate, normally (tax distortions and bubble busting aside) investing in real estate and renting will yield you more in any case. You mileage may vary depending on your local house market, your tax laws etc. obviously.
 

MattKing

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So, are you stuck with balloons after 5? Most mortgages in the US are not insured by the government. VA and FHA used to be advantageous, but not so much any more.

Not really a problem with balloon payments - the renewal market for mortgage loans is reasonably competitive in Canada. Market rates do fluctuate a bit of course, but if someone started a 5 year term 5 years ago, they would have signed on for about 3% per annum then, and their renewal will probably be around 3% per annum now.

And of course at the end of the term, one can go out into the market and try to negotiate a better deal from a competitor, or try to negotiate a better deal on a renewal than that originally offered.

Financial reversals can, of course make it difficult to get good terms from competitors, as can reductions in the market value of homes, but the marketplace seems to encourage renewals without re-qualification for anyone who has made all their payments on time.

The government provided mortgage insurance is only directly applicable to high ratio mortgages, but it tends to have an effect on the entire market.

The insurance (or privately available alternative insurance) is required by law for high ratio residential mortgages offered by Canadian chartered banks and credit unions. Borrowers are required to prove that they are financially capable before they qualify for that insurance - it is one of the major restrictions on banking operations in Canada that have helped keep our banks financially solid.
 

MattKing

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Canada?


~Stone

Mamiya: 7 II, RZ67 Pro II / Canon: 1V, AE-1, 5DmkII / Kodak: No 1 Pocket Autographic, No 1A Pocket Autographic | Sent w/ iPhone using Tapatalk

Yes, but more importantly in the Lower Mainland area of British Columbia, Canada (near Vancouver). If you are talking about single family homes around here, you will need a minimum of $500,000.00 to buy around here, and that is for small, old, and a longish way out in the suburbs.

Markets vary greatly though across the country.

There are a whole bunch of economic and taxation issues that influence this. For example, while residential mortgage interest is not deductible in Canada for our homes, we also are not required to pay capital gains tax on the increase in value of our homes.

And in addition, the tax treatment of investment in rental properties means that few wish to invest that way, preferring instead to invest in development and sale of new stock.

The paradox is that while it is cheaper to pay a mortgage for your own home then rent in one of our bigger metropolitan areas, it isn't possible to earn enough rental income from an investment property to pay the payments on the mortgage needed to finance the purchase of that property (assuming no large capital contribution).
 

blockend

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The decisive factor for Leica and other 35mm cameras values, will be the continuing manufacture of film. We've already lost Kodachrome, infra red and high speed colour negative films, and are reliant on a single manufacturer for transparency material. All cult products are liable to tulip mania and long term investors should look at historic bubbles, especially against the current declining market.
 

JBrunner

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Keep in mind that the OP wasn't asking if a Leica was worth the money, he was asking if the possible appreciation of the camera would offset credit card interest. I think most of us would agree that it won't.
 

Mark Crabtree

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Keep in mind that the OP wasn't asking if a Leica was worth the money, he was asking if the possible appreciation of the camera would offset credit card interest. I think most of us would agree that it won't.

I certainly agree with all the comments here about debt, and credit card debt in particular. I would never suggest someone buy a camera on credit except in the unlikely situation where it was necessary for work that would lead to paying off the debt.

Still, I don't know the OP's situation, and you have to figure in the cost of selling something and repurchasing it later. If I had a camera outfit that worked as I expected and suited my needs, I wouldn't be in a hurry to let it go. I would be inclined to find a way to pay it off promptly. Some creative thinking might even lead to a way to do that with photography, and promote yourself and your work at the same time. Maybe host a Leica payoff show with prints at reasonable prices. Or maybe your photography services as a Leica payoff promotion. I'm sure someone more creative than me could come up with other ideas.

If that ain't gonna work, then yeah, get out of debt however you can.
 

blockend

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Very few objects will outperform cost + interest in the short or medium term. Maybe house flippers in the boom and precious metal specialists came good but the safest way to collect is to buy something very few possess, and pay the going rate. If you see 'collectible', 'classic' or 'vintage' next to a sale, run a mile.
 

Diapositivo

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I don't know about your country, here... I'll just use my house as an example, the 2 family I have, in a dilapidated neighborhood, (which means the rental prices are actually good for renters and bad for landlords) my house mortgage per month is $2,300 on a 30 year mortgage, that includes taxes and insurance cost. .. the downstairs rent is $1,000 and the upstairs rent is $1,600 which yields $2,600 - $2,300 = $300 profit per month = $3,600 per year - $2,000 average maintenance = $1,600 net profit... this covers the home cost and then a little extra. 20 years from now that will sell for at LEAST $500,000 if not more and I've only invested $5,000 total to buy, fix up, refinance, and rent.

Sorry to continue the OT.

I think the house market you live in is deeply distorted by some economic factors, which is probably law. It's not a normal market.

You say that it is somehow natural that rent costs more than mortgage (we assume no down payment) because the rented house is usually bought on a mortgage and the owner uses the rent to pay the mortgage. This is, again, the result of a deeply distorted market.

In a normal market, "rent" is the interest you pay on the capital you borrow (the house), while "mortgage" is the interest you pay on the capital you borrow (which you use to pay the house) PLUS restitution of the capital. In economic terms rent cannot be higher than mortgage unless there are factors which distort the normal behaviour of rational capital allocators.

If you take your mortgage "plan" you see that for each instalment there are two parts: the quota capitale and the quota interessi, they correspond to the share of borrowed capital you are giving back with that instalment, and the interest on the residual capital you borrowed (initial capital minus the capital you gave back with previous mortgage instalment).

If it were possible to buy a house with a mortgage and rent it for a sum equal to the mortgage instalment I would have no hesitation in doing it several times as this means that somebody (either the person renting or the bank lending) is giving me a house for free. Again in a normal market there is no free lunch and no free house.

I know this was possible in the US before the crisis but this was the result of distorting factors which were unique to the US market (maybe something similar happened in the Spanish market).

The idea that houses inevitably rise in value in the long run is at the origin of the last US house bubble and, like any idea behind any bubble, it is more based on wishful thinking and greed than sound economic theory and inevitably bursts leaving somebody with a hard lesson (and somebody else rich, naturally).
 

georg16nik

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Sorry to continue the OT.

I think the house market you live in is deeply distorted by some economic factors, which is probably law. It's not a normal market. ..

Amen brother, its not only the house market in US, its Leica that is distorted, completely and irreversibly :wink:
 

BradS

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The simple fact is, as originally stated, if one can afford a reasonable down payment and can qualify for a market rate 30 year fixed rate mortgage, then the mortgage payments on a single family detached house will be lower than what one would expect to pay to rent the exact same home. Case in point: my own home, a modest three bedroom, two baths 1500 square feet. Monthly mortgage payment is around $1500 (principal, interest property taxes). Were I to rent this house, I could easily rent it for $3000 per month...maybe more. The market here is such that I could also sell the house for more than double what I paid fifteen years ago.
 

Diapositivo

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The simple fact is, as originally stated, if one can afford a reasonable down payment and can qualify for a market rate 30 year fixed rate mortgage, then the mortgage payments on a single family detached house will be lower than what one would expect to pay to rent the exact same home. Case in point: my own home, a modest three bedroom, two baths 1500 square feet. Monthly mortgage payment is around $1500 (principal, interest property taxes). Were I to rent this house, I could easily rent it for $3000 per month...maybe more. The market here is such that I could also sell the house for more than double what I paid fifteen years ago.

If that's the situation I don't understand what prevents you from renting your house for $3000/month and buy on mortgage another house for $1500/month.
 

BradS

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If that's the situation I don't understand what prevents you from renting your house for $3000/month and buy on mortgage another house for $1500/month.

simple...
1) all of this is conditional upon having a reasonably large down payment
2) although 10% is an entirely reasonable down payment for one's primary residence, 35% is more likely considered the minimum required for the down payment on a rental property
3) I do not have a reasonable down payment for a rental property that I would consider living in (there is a subtlety here which is attributable to the California property tax code - the details of which I will spare you at this time).


You have observed that the housing market is distorted. It is true. There are significant tax advantages pertaining to interest paid on the mortgage for the home you live in...However, that is not generally the case for the house you rent to another.
 
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