Is the Kodak Developer/Starter LORR intended to be used with the Flexicolor developer and replenisher?

So I had purchased the Kodak Flexicolor Developer and Replenisher kit (20L) from uniquephoto and am wondering if I need this starter when mixing the chemicals or if this is even the correct starter for this kit? What does LORR mean? Or LORR Flexicolor LU.

I'm talking about these 3 products.




Thanks!

LORR means Low Replenishing Rate


The more thoughput a replenished system has, thus the less decay there is, the lesser replenishment is needed. For those cases special replenishers are made.

If you do not replenish, but start with new baths each session, the type of replenisher should not matter.

A starter is needed to make a developer out of a replenisher, if you need to start with fresh baths.

As this rarely happens in a commercal setting, as one is replenishing, instead of a seperate developer-concentrate this add-on starter-concentrate is used to add to the replenisher to make the (starting/virgin) developer out of it.

The 20Lt you bought is replenisher. This is used in labs where they have tanks or machines that process C41 films and as they develop the films they replenish the chemicals with freshly mixed replenisher.

In a commercial system, the developer tank is seasoned by having developed films already. If a lab needed to mix a new tank of developer then they mix the replenisher into the developer tank and then add starter. The tank now acts like it had already developed lots of films (this is a simple explanation)

If you are using this developer as a one shot developer (you are not replenishing) then you should normally use a starter with the developer.

However, in the Kodak z131 C41 manual,

https://imaging.kodakalaris.com/sites/default/files/wysiwyg/pro/chemistry/z131.pdf

they recommend no need for starter in small tank, rotary tube or unreplenished sink line. (section 1-5, page 5)
For the small tank processing details see (section 3-6, page 37)

foc said:

However, in the Kodak z131 C41 manual,

https://imaging.kodakalaris.com/sites/default/files/wysiwyg/pro/chemistry/z131.pdf

they recommend no need for starter in small tank, rotary tube or unreplenished sink line. (section 1-5, page 5)
For the small tank processing details see (section 3-6, page 37)

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You misunderstood that chapter.

Kodak there (p.5) have it about their dedicated, readymade Flexicolor "Developer".
Such is used in systems where no replenishering is applied and thus no replenisher needed, and thus no starter to make a virgin "developer" out of a replenisher either. Thus it is about the stuff sold to consumers

Kodak do NOT advise there to use a replenisher without starter added as replacement for such developer when used in small tanks.

AgX said:

You misunderstood that chapter.

Kodak there (p.5) have it about their dedicated, readymade Flexicolor "Developer".
Such is used in systems where no replenishering is applied and thus no replenisher needed, and thus no starter to make a virgin "developer" out of a replenisher either. Thus it is about the stuff sold to consumers

Kodak do NOT advise there to use a replenisher without starter added as replacement for such developer when used in small tanks.

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So If I am processing in a jobo lift cpe, I will need the starter mixed with the replenisher each time as a one shot developer?

Yes, if you use the developer only once and start fresh again.
(There is a approach to use the developer for a few runs, but then with prolonged times after the first run.)

But you have to buy the starter in a huge amount anyway, so using the starter often should not be an issue.

reelquickfilmlab said:

So If I am processing in a jobo lift cpe, I will need the starter mixed with the replenisher each time as a one shot developer?

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I think what you may need to refer to is Kodak CIS-49 at:
https://125px.com/docs/techpubs/kodak/cis49-2009_12.pdf

You first mix up a developer replenishment solution, then from that, you create the formal Developer tank solution by diluting the replentisher and adding starter. See pages 3 & 5. (Beware the E6 and RA4 stuff mixed in!)
There does appear to be a regular starter PN: 1953009 and a LORR (Low Run Rate?) starter PN: 8485153. B&H shows the regular as no longer available. CIS49 does show different amounts of the starter being used for their respective developers.

I also use a Jobo, have bought my chemicals from unique, and use the LORR starter with my non-LORR developer.
I've read of some people not using a starter at all with their developer. (Which goes against the Word of Kodak)

I may be doing it wrong, but I get images on my film each time. Whether I could pass a Test Strip / densitometer test, who knows. Who knows if they could be printed well via RA4 (ultimate test)- I may find that out this winter.

I also know if you get the opinion of over 2 photographers (on anything), the other guy is wrong, and possibly an idiot, and probably told so on the internet. Yay. So that's my opinion. It's free, with no guarantees.

Sonynolta User said:

LORR (Low Run Rate?)

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Low Replenishment Rate, as I understand it. Check the amounts of replenisher recommended per roll for regular Flexicolor vs. LORR.

Sonynolta User said:

I also know if you get the opinion of over 2 photographers (on anything), the other guy is wrong, and an idiot, and will be told so on the internet.

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However, if you call the other guy an idiot here, you will be in danger of having your post moderated .
The large volume containers of replenisher are designed to be used either:
1) in a replenishment workflow; or
2) in a one-shot workflow, in combination with a starter.
The result from either approach is non-wonky negatives that don't suffer from cross-over problems (iff the rest of your process is done correctly).

MattKing said:

However, if you call the other guy an idiot here, you will be in danger of having your post moderated .

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That sounds awfully civilized. Glad I don't have your job

MattKing said:

The large volume containers of replenisher are designed to be used either:
1) in a replenishment workflow;

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Which does also require a starter for a fresh tank solution batch, in order to get non-wonky negatives from the get-go.

AgX said:

You misunderstood that chapter.

Kodak there (p.5) have it about their dedicated, readymade Flexicolor "Developer".
Such is used in systems where no replenishering is applied and thus no replenisher needed, and thus no starter to make a virgin "developer" out of a replenisher either. Thus it is about the stuff sold to consumers

Kodak do NOT advise there to use a replenisher without starter added as replacement for such developer when used in small tanks.

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My mistake, I did misread that chapter. Thank you for the correction.

OP, the LORR Starter is good for both the Flexicolor Replenisher and the LORR Replenisher. CIS49 is out of date in that regard since there used to be a separate starter. When you buy the 20l of fleixcolor replen it will have the mixing instructions on the box.

@reelquickfilmlab here's what you need to mix to make a 1L of working solution for your JOBO:

• 860ml of the developer replenisher, which you have to mix per instructions on the box
• 18ml of LORR developer starter
• Add water to make 1L

​

Steven Lee said:

@reelquickfilmlab here's what you need to mix to make a 1L of working solution for your JOBO:

• 860ml of the developer replenisher, which you have to mix per instructions on the box
• 18ml of LORR developer starter
• Add water to make 1L

​

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YES! THIS IS CORRECT. KODAK SINOPROMISE DOESN'T MAKE A DEVELOPER,... ONLY A REPLENISHER AND A STARTER. MAKE UP THE 20 L of REPLENISHER AND STORE IN ABSOLUTELY FULL 2 L BOTTLES. DILUTE THE REPLENISHER AND ADD STARTER AS NEEDED. THE REPLENISHER WILL KEEP FOR WEEKS, MIXED, IN ABSOLUTELY FULL PET OR GLASS BOTTLES.
STARTER IS REQUIRED FOR RA4 DEVELOPER AS WELL. UNLIKE FUJI, KODAK DOESN'T MAKE YOU BUY 1 GALLON BOTTLES OF STARTER.

NO ONE HERE IS AN IDIOT, THIS INFORMATION IS HARD TO UNCOVER.

sillo said:

OP, the LORR Starter is good for both the Flexicolor Replenisher and the LORR Replenisher. CIS49 is out of date in that regard since there used to be a separate starter. When you buy the 20l of fleixcolor replen it will have the mixing instructions on the box.

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Pictures are GREAT

mshchem said:

STARTER IS REQUIRED FOR RA4 DEVELOPER AS WELL.

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I don't know about other RA-4 replenishers, but the Kodak RA-RT Developer/Replenisher, used to develop at room temperature for two minutes, does not require any starter or dilution after mixing to use as a developer.. Its use this way was endorsed by PE, and I as well as other members have successfully used it this way. It might require it if used at the standard time and high temperature; I have not heard one way or another.

RPC said:

I don't know about other RA-4 replenishers, but the Kodak RA-RT Developer/Replenisher, used to develop at room temperature for two minutes, does not require any starter or dilution after mixing to use as a developer.. Its use this way was endorsed by PE, and I as well as other members have successfully used it this way. It might require it if used at the standard time and high temperature; I have not heard one way or another.

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I'm talking about using at the original recommended temp of 35°C for 45 seconds. Especially using processors like tube or drum units, even roller transport machines. Without some bromide to restrain the development you can get severe chemical fogging. Higher the agitation the more of a pronounced brown fog. I went through at least 10 sheets of paper one session before it dawned on me that I didn't dilute the replenisher and add starter.
Tray development of RA4 at room temperature is something I've not tried. PE is the Gold Standard! I know this is how he printed color.

RPC said:

I don't know about other RA-4 replenishers, but the Kodak RA-RT Developer/Replenisher, used to develop at room temperature for two minutes, does not require any starter or dilution after mixing to use as a developer..

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I can't vouch for the Kodak product, but at least the Fuji product line (MP60, MP90, etc.) require a starter or need to be seasoned by running a significant amount of (exposed) paper through it. Otherwise color balance cannot be dialed in correctly and contrast is way off; in severe cases there can also be a very pronounced color casts to the whites. Only with starter does the product develop as intended. This is true for trays as well as RT processors.
I would be very surprised if the Kodak product would perform differently in this respect and by sheer magic 'knows' if it's being used for the first time or one shot, or as a replenisher. Regardless of the developer used, there will always be buildup of halides in the developer as it's being used as well as pH drift from an initial state; a starter compensates for this.
Sadly, Kodak does not make information on fresh vs. seasoned tank pH easily available, which is a reasonably good indicator whether the two solutions can be treated as equivalent. For Fuji chemistry, the pH of replenisher is significantly higher than that of a seasoned tank. Kodak does give information on specific gravity, which turns out to be significantly higher for a seasoned tank of developer than the replenisher (z130 page 1-10). While this does not necessarily indicate a similar difference in developer activity, it is highly unlikely that the pure replenisher will perform the same as the developer. Indeed, if this were the case, there would be no need for a starter altogether. Furthermore, the troubleshooting section of Z130 specifically spends attention to the issue of overreplenishment (as well as underreplenishment, obviously). If using the replenisher would somehow yield the same results as a started/seasoned tank, then these precautions would have no basis.

If you're optimistic, you will probably argue that you can filter you way out of the difference between using a replenisher vs. a seasoned/started tank. I'm very, very skeptical of this and my experience with at least the Fuji developer suggests that this is absolutely impossible. While you can get color development by using just the replenisher without a starter, it is not possible to get the same color balance as with properly maintained developer chemistry. I'm much more optimistic about using the developer at a sub-standard temperature, which indeed I have done for a long time, and this appears to yield decent results, provided that filtration is adjusted to account for the difference in developer activity. So also with this factor you don't get exactly the same output.

RPC said:

Its use this way was endorsed by PE

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I do recall PE using Ektacolor RA/RT in trays at room temperature, but I do not recall him specifically mentioning only using the replenisher without a starter or without seasoning it and then replenishing it (which achieves the same as adding the starter). I'm not saying you're wrong; I'm just saying I don't recall this particular aspect of his processing.
I'd also wager to note, at the risk of being accused of sacrilege, that PE's examples of color transparency reversals (he printed slides onto RA4 paper) were admirable, but he described them as "quite good" while in my eyes the examples he showed were mediocre at best. This is not to discredit the vast and insanely useful knowledge base he contributed to the community, but to illustrate that PE himself was also only human, and as a result prone to imperfection just like all of us (although granted, significantly less so when it came to color materials!) and/or that whatever he said was open to some degree of interpretation especially when it came to subjective assessments (i.e. "x or y works well/not so well").

Long story short: if RA4 replenisher works for you in the way you described, that's very nice, but I myself would not recommend it.

Yes, it works very well and PE said many times over the years starter was not needed for the RA-RT replenisher at room temperature, and never said that it needed to be seasoned and replenished when used in this manner. I myself have run tests with gray scales to ensure no crossover or fog, and even after running many prints through it the results did not change. It works well with both Kodak Endura and Fuji CA II papers.

As for his prints from slides, this is a cross process and difficult to get prints comparable to prints from negatives. His results were better than many others that have tried it, so you have to view it in that light. (pun intended)

Alright, I'm surprised to hear that Kodak Ektacolor apparently behaves fundamentally differently from their Fuji counterpart.

RPC said:

His results were better than many others that have tried it

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Most certainly!

Kodak Alaris' website still has some old datasheets. It appears that Eastman Kodak, pre reorganization, sold a one gallon RA4 Developer, not a replenisher, a Developer. This could be used directly as a one shot developer.

This is shown in J39. This same publication specified use of starter on the developer replenisher.

I remember PE cautioning me about using my ancient Kodak Rapid Color Processors with RA4. Previously Kodak made a special Ektaprint 300 Developer for use with the Kodak Rapid Color processor, I suspect that the Ektaprint 300 had a little extra restrainer.

Personal experience has shown me that a starter is needed

Kodak has never promoted the use of the RA-RT replenisher for use at normal room temperatures, with or without starter. PE found on his own that it works the excellent way it does.

sillo said:

OP, the LORR Starter is good for both the Flexicolor Replenisher and the LORR Replenisher. CIS49 is out of date in that regard since there used to be a separate starter. When you buy the 20l of fleixcolor replen it will have the mixing instructions on the box.

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That's good to know before spending a lot on these chemicals!