Is the film craze dead?

[Cholentpot]

Yeah, I don't get that. I even posted a thread that Fuji 200 is back in stock for $25/3 pack. Which was about the same as that 20 yr old Gold sold for.

I mean, I expect that on craigslist, ebay etc. But not here on photrio!

Then again, Gold 200 isn't in stock in many online stores.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

@Alan Edward Klein I think you misunderstood something. Businesses reclaim the VAT of their expenses. VAT doesn't "add up" between transactions.

What does that mean?

 

[Anon Ymous]

What does that mean?

In practice, you don't apply VAT on a price which already includes VAT.

 

[Pieter12]

@Alan Edward Klein I think you misunderstood something. Businesses reclaim the VAT of their expenses. VAT doesn't "add up" between transactions.

VAT is charged on the increase in value of the transaction as it moves between sellers. SO, there may be VAT paid one raw materials by a manufacturer (that is recouped), but the VAT will be higher on the manufactured item. If there is another middle-man involved who marks the item up (a distributor, perhaps) that additional value is essentially what is being taxed. And so on to the final purchaser, who pays VAT on the total price of the item.

 

[Anon Ymous]

VAT is charged on the increase in value of the transaction as it moves between sellers. SO, there may be VAT paid one raw materials by a manufacturer (that is recouped), but the VAT will be higher on the manufactured item. If there is another middle-man involved who marks the item up (a distributor, perhaps) that additional value is essentially what is being taxed. And so on to the final purchaser, who pays VAT on the total price of the item.

Very well said, sums it nicely.

 

[MattKing]

VAT is charged on the increase in value of the transaction as it moves between sellers. SO, there may be VAT paid one raw materials by a manufacturer (that is recouped), but the VAT will be higher on the manufactured item. If there is another middle-man involved who marks the item up (a distributor, perhaps) that additional value is essentially what is being taxed. And so on to the final purchaser, who pays VAT on the total price of the item.

And in each case, the entity charging the VAT only needs to remit to the government the net VAT for the period in question. That being the difference between what VAT they charged during that period, and the VAT they paid out. So if during the first quarter of 2023 your business was charged $30,000.00 in VAT but during the same quarter you charged your customer $40,000.00 VAT you only need to remit $10,000.00 for that quarter.
For seasonal businesses, it isn't unusual for the government to end up owing VAT to businesses during some parts of the year.
The final result means that the government just gets to keep the amount of VAT that the end user pays. More importantly, there doesn't have to be complex arrangements in place where some goods and services don't have tax charged, because they are for resale, while others have tax charged, because they are consumed by the purchaser.
In addition, policy choices about what things and services are or are not taxed can be based on the goods and services themselves, rather than the identity of the purchaser. Up here, most food groceries and residential rents are two examples of things that don't attract GST.
And finally, as a result of bringing in GST, the experience in Canada was that in many, many cases businesses ended up modernizing their bookkeeping and accounting systems, in order to take advantage of being able to claim the "input tax credits".
When I used to prepare the GST returns for the businesses I did this, it was a simple matter of running a single report in our bookkeeping/accounting software, transferring a few numbers over to a computer generated government form, and instructing the software to generate and print the cheque for the remittance due.
We then walked next door to the bank and submitted the form and the payment - they returned our copy confirming payment.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

And in each case, the entity charging the VAT only needs to remit to the government the net VAT for the period in question. That being the difference between what VAT they charged during that period, and the VAT they paid out. So if during the first quarter of 2023 your business was charged $30,000.00 in VAT but during the same quarter you charged your customer $40,000.00 VAT you only need to remit $10,000.00 for that quarter.
For seasonal businesses, it isn't unusual for the government to end up owing VAT to businesses during some parts of the year.
In addition, policy choices about what things and services are or are not taxed can be based on the goods and services themselves, rather than the identity of the purchaser. Up here, most food groceries and residential rents are two examples of things that don't attract GST.
And finally, as a result of bringing in GST, the experience in Canada was that in many, many cases businesses ended up modernizing their bookkeeping and accounting systems, in order to take advantage of being able to claim the "input tax credits".
When I used to prepare the GST returns for the businesses I did this, it was a simple matter of running a single report in our bookkeeping/accounting software, transferring a few numbers over to a computer generated government form, and instructing the software to generate and print the cheque for the remittance due.
We then walked next door to the bank and submitted the form and the payment - they returned our copy confirming payment.

If the final purchaser winds up paying the full vat from all of the many producers, why not add just one sales tax at the end covering the full amount, other than sticker shock?

State sales tax in America do have separate categories for no taxes on certain items such as food and medicine as well as no sales taxes on n purchases made by government agencies and charitable and non profit corporations like churches and universities.

 

[BrianShaw]

State sales tax in America do have separate categories for no taxes on certain items such as food and medicine as well as no sales taxes on n purchases made by government agencies and charitable and non profit corporations like churches and universities.

That, and more. Here is an example of sales tax exemptions… a fascinating list. Some items clearly exempted for special interests. I’m surprised to have not seen “vintage analogue cameras and supplies” listed.

https://www.cdtfa.ca.gov/formspubs/pub61.pdf

 

[MattKing]

If the final purchaser winds up paying the full vat from all of the many producers, why not add just one sales tax at the end covering the full amount, other than sticker shock?

Because parties in the chain buy lots of things that they end up consuming themselves, so they end up being the end user, and the sales tax they pay on those items increase their overhead, which requires them to increase their prices to their customers, which in turn means that those customers who are at the end of the chain end up paying much higher base prices and much higher tax.
In the VAT system, you don't end up with nearly as much tax on tax.

 

[madNbad]

Because parties in the chain buy lots of things that they end up consuming themselves, so they end up being the end user, and the sales tax they pay on those items increase their overhead, which requires them to increase their prices to their customers, which in turn means that those customers who are at the end of the chain end up paying much higher base prices and much higher tax.
In the VAT system, you don't end up with nearly as much tax on tax.

I live in a state that doesn’t have a sales tax which sounds great but there is a lot of money that is not going into the state coffers from out of state visitors or the underground economy. Property and income tax are the way Oregon finances government. A sales tax would add a third leg to the taxation stool, with the promise of reducing both income and property taxes but the voters have turned it down numerous times. The VAT covers the entire nation and trying to pass legislation like that in the United States would be equivalent to trying to herd cats.

 

[Don_ih]

A sales tax would add a third leg to the taxation stool, with the promise of reducing both income and property taxes but the voters have turned it down numerous times.

That would likely be turned down because voters know that introducing a sales tax will not reduce income tax or property tax.

The HST here in this province is wonderful. Take the case of building a house. An entity buys a piece of property, they pay HST on it. They buy materials and pay HST. They hire subcontractors and various services and pay HST on those. And they sell the house - and charge HST. Now, that entity gets to remove the HST for all their expenses from the HST they collected during the house sale, to recover what they have spent. However, in the meantime, all those expenses have added up during the construction phase and increased the base cost of every next step, since everybody at every step of the way needs to cover their own expenses, at the time they are incurred, which includes paying HST for everything they buy or every service they need to pay.

It is naive to think such a tax will not raise the actual end price of everything.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

That, and more. Here is an example of sales tax exemptions… a fascinating list. Some items clearly exempted for special interests. I’m surprised to have not seen “vintage analogue cameras and supplies” listed.

https://www.cdtfa.ca.gov/formspubs/pub61.pdf

When I lived in NYS when I was a youngster, New Yorkers would travel across the George Washington Bridge into New Jersey to buy clothes to save on the sales tax in NYS not charged on clothes in NJ.

Conversely, New Jersey kids over 18 but under 21 would travel to NYS when the legal drinking age was 18 in NY and 21 in NJ. Then they got into car accidents on the way back to NJ from NYS bars and taverns because they were drunk hitting the NY clothes' shoppers returning home from shopping sprees in NJ. NYS finally agreed to raise their age to 21 to stop the carnage on the roads so all the states around had the same legal drinking age. There was no reason for NJ kids to travel to NY to drink. Connecticut kids also drove drunk back from NYS as their drinking age was also 21.

Interestingly candy and soda are not considered foods in NJ so you have to pay sales tax on those items. And of course, although "real" foods like eggs and milk don't get taxed when bought in a food store, eating in restaurants gets taxed under the theory if you can afford to eat out, you can afford the sales tax.

America's Federal system of sovereign state law and jurisdiction causes all sort of differences and problems other than Sales Taxes.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

Because parties in the chain buy lots of things that they end up consuming themselves, so they end up being the end user, and the sales tax they pay on those items increase their overhead, which requires them to increase their prices to their customers, which in turn means that those customers who are at the end of the chain end up paying much higher base prices and much higher tax.
In the VAT system, you don't end up with nearly as much tax on tax.

Vat taxes seem to be considerably higher than any of the states sales taxes imposed in the US. It's one of the reasons a NIkon for example costing let's say $1000 in B&H in NYC (plus sales tax of 8.875 %) is so much less than let's say $1400 equivalent in Europe. In any case, when the final buyer in Europe or GB gets the receipt for a camera there, does it show the total VAT taxes applied or just the last one? Is the full extent of the VAT shown or hidden from the buyer?

Of course sales taxes as you say that businesses pay for overhead items raise the final price to customers. That's why arguments to raise taxes in general of those nasty businesses sounds good but the taxes are just passed along to buyer. So average people wind up paying the business tax. I can't go further or else I night be charged with being political

 

[Cholentpot]

ZzzzZZzzZZzzz

 

[BrianShaw]

Alan asks (but the multiquote does not seem to want to work at the moment):

In any case, when the final buyer in Europe or GB gets the receipt for a camera there, does it show the total VAT taxes applied or just the last one? Is the full extent of the VAT shown or hidden from the buyer?

My limited experience from working in the UK is that the price consumer pays for goods are inclusive of VAT and the VAT is basically invisible to the consumer. The price stated is the price paid. That seems consistent with the concept of value-added as the end-user is a consumer who does not add any value to the product they purchased... so they have no role in the VAT recovery accounting.

To keep this conversation discussion photography/film-based... when we buy and use film we consume, not add value to the film product. I'm not sure if that VAT, as well as VAT on chemistry, printing paper, etc can be recovered when the film is used in the production of an art photograph that is offered for sale, though. Seems like it might be recoverable, thinking logically (or illogically), since the production of an art product has an increased and added value using the various photographic supplies used in the production of that art. It's not clear to me where the added value chain ends. But it does seem like a very complex accounting that requires cooperation of suppliers to understand what VAT has already been paid in order to compute the difference that is owed after those materials are transmorgrified into something else.

Here is the tutorial I went to for a better understannding:

What Is Value-Added Tax (VAT)?

Value-added tax (VAT) is collected on a product at every stage of the supply chain where value is added to it, from production to point of sale.

www.investopedia.com

 

[Anon Ymous]

@BrianShaw The prices in retail include VAT, you don't need to calculate the extra tax before paying. The receipt you get will show price (including VAT) and the VAT rate. VAT analysis is also provided and you know the amount of VAT and the net value paid.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

Alan asks (but the multiquote does not seem to want to work at the moment):


My limited experience from working in the UK is that the price consumer pays for goods are inclusive of VAT and the VAT is basically invisible to the consumer. The price stated is the price paid. That seems consistent with the concept of value-added as the end-user is a consumer who does not add any value to the product they purchased... so they have no role in the VAT recovery accounting.

To keep this conversation discussion photography/film-based... when we buy and use film we consume, not add value to the film product. I'm not sure if that VAT, as well as VAT on chemistry, printing paper, etc can be recovered when the film is used in the production of an art photograph that is offered for sale, though. Seems like it might be recoverable, thinking logically (or illogically), since the production of an art product has an increased and added value using the various photographic supplies used in the production of that art. It's not clear to me where the added value chain ends. But it does seem like a very complex accounting that requires cooperation of suppliers to understand what VAT has already been paid in order to compute the difference that is owed after those materials are transmorgrified into something else.

Here is the tutorial I went to for a better understannding:

What Is Value-Added Tax (VAT)?

Value-added tax (VAT) is collected on a product at every stage of the supply chain where value is added to it, from production to point of sale.

www.investopedia.com

A big issue at least if VAT was done in the US is that sales tax receipts are currently imposed or not by the 50 individual states and go to state tax collections, not national collections. So, a VAT tax would really be a national sales tax on goods in addition to state sales taxes, not instead of. I assume in Europe and GB, there are no sales taxes additional to VAT. How about Canada where you have Provinces? Are there provincial sales taxes and VAT taxes?


Since states can impose sales taxes within their states and need that money to run state operations, the VAT cannot override them constitutionally. It would frankly just be another tax for the Federal (national) government to impose to run the national government. State sales taxes would continue as they are now. The American Federl system of a national government plus 50 state governments would really complicate VAT implementation here.

 

[foc]

For a simple explanation of how VAT works, click on this link and scroll down to the EXAMPLE and forget the rest.

To consumers, it sounds complicated but to businesses that complete a Vat return (tax return), the concept is simple.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

For a simple explanation of how VAT works, click on this link and scroll down to the EXAMPLE and forget the rest.

To consumers, it sounds complicated but to businesses that complete a Vat return (tax return), the concept is simple.

View attachment 333519

It seems cameras and film are in the 23% highest VAT category. What about art? Can photos be considered art?

 

[BrianShaw]

It seems cameras and film are in the 23% highest VAT category. What about art? Can photos be considered art?

LOL... diferent thread; different heavily opinionated arguement.

 

[Oldwino]

Jeez, I hope nobody mentions "use" tax...

 

[BrianShaw]

Jeez, I hope nobody mentions "use" tax...

You just did. Thanks, bub...

 

[Cholentpot]

Film might not be dead but this conversation sure is.

 

[BrianShaw]

Film might not be dead but this conversation sure is.

Then why don't you tune to another channel? Seems like you are wasting your time in this thread...

But your point that it has devolved into something entirely different, and potentially meaningless to the original intent, is quite accurate. But this is Photrio and that seems to happen!

 

[Cholentpot]

Then why don't you tune to another channel? Seems like you are wasting your time in this thread...

But your point that it has devolved into something entirely different, and potentially meaningless to the original intent, is quite accurate. But this is Photrio and that seems to happen!

3 pages of tax talk. Really?

Lets go online and talk about the intricate differences of international tax codes! Woo! Lemmie get my slide rule, I can't wait!

I've shot over 30 rolls of film since the beginning of the year. That's not counting sheets of 4x5. Formats from 16mm up through 6x9 120. Color and B&W. I have some E-6 slide hanging out that I'll get to and a roll of Kokacolor-X that's so old it has an aluminum can.

Color film is out of stock in every brick and mortar around here. Cheap color is out of stock online at the big retailers. I can't find Rodinal in stock online. The local big photography store moved their film and chemistry from the back dusty corner to the front of the shop near the checkout counter. The Analog subreddit has nearly 2 million subscribers and there are users posting film portraits of A list celebrities. Pentax announced they're working on a film camera and then followed up with some details this week. I see more film cameras in the wild than DSLRs or mirrorless digital cameras. Instagram is full with people posting reels of loading and shooting film. Printing is back at a few local high schools.

Is the film craze dead? No.

Not even close.

Film is re-inventing itself from the ground up.