Is the film craze dead?

Anon Ymous · Mar 20, 2023

Cholentpot said:
Ebay is where the PT Barnum customers hang out.

Ebay is a place with massively overpriced items as well as very good deals. Granted, they're not as common as they used to be, but if you are willing to wait, then something will appear at a reasonable price. I'm patient and have bought cameras and lenses at very good prices. Also keep in mind that a pawn shop, a garage sale, an obscure second hand shop isn't always an option. They're definitely not an option for me. So, after taking into account all these and the certainty of import duties, taxes and VAT, I mostly buy from eBay, preferably within EU, although I won't disregard any good deals from third countries. One serious advantage eBay offers for me as a buyer is buyer protection, which is quite generous.

So, yes, there might be some very good other choices out there, but they're pie in the sky for some of us.

DREW WILEY · Mar 20, 2023

Michael - you apparently don't understand the dramatic distinction in engineered film curve categories that you can read about in even the first few pages of any old Kodak black and white film guide. No thick-emulsion, very long straight line film equivalent to Super-XX now exists. Bergger 200 was the last semi-equivalent. The present Foma/Arista pseudo-200 has a long straight line, but none of the other desirable characteristics. TMax 400 is a reasonable substitute, but not the same thing either. FP4 won't handle anywhere near the same luminance range as the true 200's, though it's an excellent film in its own right. The sheer development malleability of Super-XX was amazing.

But if M. Smith bought too much of it at once and let it get way outdated, or stored it wrong, well, that's a different story. And of course, the sheer graininess of Super-XX compared to modern films would probably not appeal to today's predominantly small camera shooters.

TheFlyingCamera · Mar 20, 2023

Nicholas Lindan said:
There is an inverse relationship between the price asked and the time to sell an item - a variation of the price-elasticity curve. What the hell, I'm preaching to the choir, but when has that ever stopped me.

Something is only worth what you can get someone else to pay for it. Wait long enough, though, and someone will come along and buy it - sort of the "Greater Fool" theory of stock investing ("If I was foolish enough to buy this worthless stock for $X then somewhere there is someone even more foolish than I who will buy it for $2x" - if I don't die first...)

As to film demand, I'm too far removed from the hipster scene to know.

I worry about photographic paper demand. Paper will disappear before film goes. With the current practice of photographing negatives with a phone and calling the job done, the demand for anything darkroom has tumbled faster than film. It seems very few people now make prints from their negatives - a shame as analog prints are so very beautiful.

The school where I teach photography frequently has all 12 enlargers in our darkroom in use on any given open darkroom day. And interest in our intro darkroom class is always booming.

Roger Cole · Mar 20, 2023

benjiboy said:
Obsessive compulsive disorder is a recognised mental illness.

Yes, so? What's your point?

It's also NOT what people generally say. In order to be a disorder it MUST interfere with life in a negative way. Just being detail oriented or liking to collect things is NOT a disorder.

Michael Mutmansky · Mar 20, 2023

DREW WILEY said:
Michael - you apparently don't understand the dramatic distinction in engineered film curve categories that you can read about in even the first few pages of any old Kodak black and white film guide. No thick-emulsion, very long straight line film equivalent to Super-XX now exists. Bergger 200 was the last semi-equivalent. The present Foma/Arista pseudo-200 has a long straight line, but none of the other desirable characteristics. TMax 400 is a reasonable substitute, but not the same thing either. FP4 won't handle anywhere near the same luminance range as the true 200's, though it's an excellent film in its own right. The sheer development malleability of Super-XX was amazing.

But if M. Smith bought too much of it at once and let it get way outdated, or stored it wrong, well, that's a different story. And of course, the sheer graininess of Super-XX compared to modern films would probably not appeal to today's predominantly small camera shooters.

None of them are the same thing but none of them were magical, and it wasn't a loss to photography when it was discontinued as thre were many, many othere great films available that wew funcitonally equivalently useful.

The point being that he (and appearely you as well) liked to ascribe mythical properties to some things and he was willing to spend thousands of dollars on film beack before Kodak discontinued XX so that he could shoot it for the rest of his life and that was a mistake that he grew to regret later in life, but of course he would never admit it.

Whatever, dude. Enjoy your old freezer-aged film. If you calculate the present value of your sunk cost I bet you will find that it isn't nearly the value you think it is.

DREW WILEY · Mar 20, 2023

Value? ....... Do you think I have that film in storage for sake of re-selling it? I've got boxes of 8X10 TMax100 and TMY400 in there, and boxes 8X10 Ektar color neg film. That will be perfectly usable for another decade. Yeah, once Cibachrome (Ilfochrome) went out of production, I sold off my frozen boxes of chrome sheet film. But the point is, I've ALREADY SAVED thousands of dollars buying such film when it was priced right. It's gone up dramatically since. "Whatever dude" has already justified his film purchases. And nowadays, even a single 10-sheet box of Kodak 8x10 color film costs more than I paid for that big freezer itself !

Even my frozen stash of Ilford film, and of roll films, though now thinned-out, saved me a considerable amount of money. For instance, what does Fuji Acros 120 go for today - maybe $12 a roll. I bought it for around $2.50 per roll. And I still even have a full box of 4x5 Acros, which I'm just about to start shooting.

Cholentpot · Mar 20, 2023

Huss said:
Hey my sweet n80 for $20 shipped says otherwise!
As does my $1500 M7 serial# 3xxxx
etc

Of course there are lots of sellers looking for suckers. Right now some Japanese sellers are asking $2500+ for a Rollei qz35. Actual sold prices are in the $500-$700 range.

It goes both ways. You can get a screaming deal but not like it was in 2015. People were dumping boxes of cameras for a pittance.

Cholentpot · Mar 20, 2023

Anon Ymous said:
Ebay is a place with massively overpriced items as well as very good deals. Granted, they're not as common as they used to be, but if you are willing to wait, then something will appear at a reasonable price. I'm patient and have bought cameras and lenses at very good prices. Also keep in mind that a pawn shop, a garage sale, an obscure second hand shop isn't always an option. They're definitely not an option for me. So, after taking into account all these and the certainty of import duties, taxes and VAT, I mostly buy from eBay, preferably within EU, although I won't disregard any good deals from third countries. One serious advantage eBay offers for me as a buyer is buyer protection, which is quite generous.

So, yes, there might be some very good other choices out there, but they're pie in the sky for some of us.

I got the majority of my cameras from pawn, estate, garage or people who got out of film years ago and gave me their old cameras. It's hit or miss. I've gotten more hits than miss but I have learned not to say no. Usually that free Brownie has something else hidden in that house. Be it a box of flash bulbs or a projector or an old stash of film.

Roger Cole · Mar 20, 2023

Duceman said:
I'm also in the usefultool hobby, and I agree that there is oftentimes wide latitude between the ask and buy. And there's a reason why, in the hobby, it's sometimes referred to as usefultooljoker.com.

Me three, and I've done both ends of it, as it were, buying NOW and paying a premium because I wanted it now and could afford it, and waiting and picking up bargains when I found them. In 2021 I was getting into a subset of that hobby (think 19th century based on movies of same era) and needed/wanted some very specific things and I wanted them NOW. I paid the "usefultoolbroker.com" prices (that's exactly where I got all but one of them) even though I knew the combination of the nature of the site AND the shortage at the time meant I was paying likely twice what I'd have to pay a year or two later (more like 50% more as it turns out, but still substantially less now.) I knew it, but I paid it anyway, because I could afford it and wanted those particular items NOW not next year when they'd be cheaper.

Photography is different for me, and probably most here, in that I pretty much already have "a" camera or lens (or more than one) that I can use to pursue any photographic project or interest I decide to take up. I may WANT something different, but it can almost always wait because I have what I NEED.

There are going to be some people who want or need something badly enough to pay what it costs to get it NOW, but there are usually more of whatever item than there are such people. So SOME of them will sell at such prices, sometimes, but most won't.

Cholentpot · Mar 20, 2023

{moderator's deletion of off-topic politics}

Roger Cole said:
Me three, and I've done both ends of it, as it were, buying NOW and paying a premium because I wanted it now and could afford it, and waiting and picking up bargains when I found them. In 2021 I was getting into a subset of that hobby (think 19th century based on movies of same era) and needed/wanted some very specific things and I wanted them NOW. I paid the "usefultoolbroker.com" prices (that's exactly where I got all but one of them) even though I knew the combination of the nature of the site AND the shortage at the time meant I was paying likely twice what I'd have to pay a year or two later (more like 50% more as it turns out, but still substantially less now.) I knew it, but I paid it anyway, because I could afford it and wanted those particular items NOW not next year when they'd be cheaper.

Photography is different for me, and probably most here, in that I pretty much already have "a" camera or lens (or more than one) that I can use to pursue any photographic project or interest I decide to take up. I may WANT something different, but it can almost always wait because I have what I NEED.

There are going to be some people who want or need something badly enough to pay what it costs to get it NOW, but there are usually more of whatever item than there are such people. So SOME of them will sell at such prices, sometimes, but most won't.

I think a lot of the people buying on Ebay are of the I Want It Now crowd. If I had the funds I'd not really worry much about the price either.

Btw, the usefultools you got aren't considered usefultools by Uncle Sam. They're just...things. Things that do what usefultools do but like, they're old.

MattKing · Mar 20, 2023

political discussion deleted.

Cholentpot · Mar 20, 2023

MattKing said:
political discussion deleted.

To sum up my point without getting into the weeds,

Niche hobbies seem to have spaces where prices can have massive discrepancies. I like to think of Photrio as a place where the true value of a camera is known and you're not going to see an AE-1 Program go for $450 because it's clean, comes with a bag, a strap and a 50 1.8 a 28 3.5, some filters and a roll of Kodacolor from 1985.

Put that package up on Ebay or Facebook and you might get a lucky bite.

VinceInMT · Mar 20, 2023

Roger Cole said:
It's also NOT what people generally say. In order to be a disorder it MUST interfere with life in a negative way. Just being detail oriented or liking to collect things is NOT a disorder.

When my wife glances around at stuff I have acquired, she asks if I know the difference between collecting and hoarding.

Sirius Glass · Mar 20, 2023

VinceInMT said:
When my wife glances around at stuff I have acquired, she asks if I know the difference between collecting and hoarding.

Simple

Collecting is for yourself
Hoarding drives us to buy to keep thing from the hoarders

faberryman · Mar 20, 2023

Cholentpot said:
To sum up my point without getting into the weeds,

Niche hobbies seem to have spaces where prices can have massive discrepancies. I like to think of Photrio as a place where the true value of a camera is known and you're not going to see an AE-1 Program go for $450 because it's clean, comes with a bag, a strap and a 50 1.8 a 28 3.5, some filters and a roll of Kodacolor from 1985.

Put that package up on Ebay or Facebook and you might get a lucky bite.

I haven't bought a camera in years, so I really haven't kept up with prices. I wouldn't buy a Canon AE-1 regardless of price, first because it is a Canon, and second because it is an AE-1. If I needed another reason not to buy a Canon AE-1, it would be because I know that new film enthusiasts have been talking up the Canon AE-1 on Facebook as the coolest camera to own for years, largely because it is the only film camera they have ever heard of, and as a result the going price is way more than it is worth. I wouldn't be all that surprised if $450 was the going price, particularly if it includes a 1985 roll of Kodacolor. I mean expired film is so cool. New film enthusiasts are so into that box of chocolates vibe.

If I wanted a particular camera, I'd buy the first clean working copy that came along as long as the price wasn't insane. Some people enjoy the hunt for the cheapest price for something, and get a big thrill from bagging it. I am more into making photographs than being a day trader on eBay.

Huss · Mar 20, 2023

faberryman said:
.

If I wanted a particular camera, I'd buy the first clean working copy that came along as long as the price wasn't insane. Some people enjoy the hunt for the cheapest price for something, and get a big thrill from bagging it. I am more into making photographs than being a day trader on eBay.

What is "insane"?

Is something "insanely" priced if it is the going market rate, that you don't agree with?

I mean, there's lots of gear out there that to me is not worth the market rate, but does that make it insane?

I'm not disagreeing with you, it's just personal preferences that now come into play.

faberryman · Mar 20, 2023

Huss said:
What is "insane"?

Is something "insanely" priced if it is the going market rate, that you don't agree with?

I mean, there's lots of gear out there that to me is not worth the market rate, but does that make it insane?

I'm not disagreeing with you, it's just personal preferences that now come into play.

I think a price is insane if it is well about the current market price. If the current market price is more than I want to pay, it is just more than I want to pay.

Cholentpot · Mar 20, 2023

faberryman said:
I haven't bought a camera in years, so I really haven't kept up with prices. I wouldn't buy a Canon AE-1 regardless of price, first because it is a Canon, and second because it is an AE-1. If I needed another reason not to buy a Canon AE-1, it would be because I know that new film enthusiasts have been talking up the Canon AE-1 on Facebook as the coolest camera to own for years, largely because it is the only film camera they have ever heard of, and as a result the going price is way more than it is worth. I wouldn't be all that surprised if $450 was the going price, particularly if it includes a 1985 roll of Kodacolor. I mean expired film is so cool. New film enthusiasts are so into that box of chocolates vibe.

If I wanted a particular camera, I'd buy the first clean working copy that came along as long as the price wasn't insane. Some people enjoy the hunt for the cheapest price for something, and get a big thrill from bagging it. I am more into making photographs than being a day trader on eBay.

You talking smack about Canon?

faberryman · Mar 20, 2023

Cholentpot said:
You talking smack about Canon?

I like the Canon FTb and F1. I don't like the A series, T series, or EOS series cameras. I owned an Canonet 28 in the mid-1970s. It was my backup camera. I owned a couple of digital ELPHs. I liked them because they had optical viewfinders.

eli griggs · Mar 20, 2023

Sirius Glass said:
Why would anyone do that??

Take the shot, without regard, if you can afford it, old expired film or no, as the real experience you need to gain, outweighs the benefits that lessons in composition, colour theory, chemistry, and other "classic" visual art based routes to better photographs.

If you can afford the basic chemistry and kit to develop your own b&w films and prints, you will find the experience making an image, from the visual which attracts your eye, to contact sheets to the editing and skill needed making a final print, ALL benefits your photography and the "classic" education that some here will bother to seek out, may never be needed.

The bottom line is "quality", learned and applied by you to each stage of your trek from your photo day out, to that final print and l while some here will never achieve the eye and rigor of that aspect of their art, many others WILL LEARN, what is required in a successful photograph, and note there are some folks, who just natively know what "quality" looks and feels like.

Shoot a large, number of bulk roll film stock, where applicable and, initially, think only about what "quality" is in your pre-shot image and how it is best made with what you have in your camera and lens, fixed or no, and you'll most likely and immediately, see your photographs increase in quality.

IMO.

Pieter12 · Mar 20, 2023

eli griggs said:
Take the shot, without regard, if you can afford it, old expired film or no, as the real experience you need to gain, outweighs the benefits that lessons in composition, colour theory, chemistry, and other "classic" visual art based routes to better photographs.

If you can afford the basic chemistry and kit to develop your own b&w films and prints, you will find the experience making an image, from the visual which attracts your eye, to contact sheets to the editing and skill needed making a final print, ALL benefits your photography and the "classic" education that some here will bother to seek out, may never be needed.

The bottom line is "quality", learned and applied by you to each stage of your trek from your photo day out, to that final print and l while some here will never achieve the eye and rigor of that aspect of their art, many others WILL LEARN, what is required in a successful photograph, and note there are some folks, who just natively know what "quality" looks and feels like.

Shoot a large, number of bulk roll film stock, where applicable and, initially, think only about what "quality" is in your pre-shot image and how it is best made with what you have in your camera and lens, fixed or no, and you'll most likely and immediately, see your photographs increase in quality.

IMO.

That method is bound to sour some on film photography and maybe even photography in general. Without looking at many, many photos, without any guidance of any sort, like books or a class or a mentor, working as you described is pretty much working blind. A lot can be done wrong or poorly at first without help (and nobody seems to read or follow instructions today) and the photographer wouldn't know until the film is processed and printed. Working alone, one would be better off shooting digital to start to at least get some composition and exposure chops first before diving into film. I am sure there may be some who innately know a good image from a bad one, but there are a hell of a lot more who wouldn't know a good print from trash.

Cholentpot · Mar 20, 2023

Pieter12 said:
That method is bound to sour some on film photography and maybe even photography in general. Without looking at many, many photos, without any guidance of any sort, like books or a class or a mentor, working as you described is pretty much working blind. A lot can be done wrong or poorly at first without help (and nobody seems to read or follow instructions today) and the photographer wouldn't know until the film is processed and printed. Working alone, one would be better off shooting digital to start to at least get some composition and exposure chops first before diving into film. I am sure there may be some who innately know a good image from a bad one, but there are a hell of a lot more who wouldn't know a good print from trash.

The upside is the ones who succeed in this method have a very unique and creative photography eye.

Pieter12 · Mar 20, 2023

Cholentpot said:
The upside is the ones who succeed in this method have a very unique and creative photography eye.

Maybe a good eye. Good craft is less likely.

bryans_tx · Mar 20, 2023

Roger Cole said:
Yes, so? What's your point?

It's also NOT what people generally say. In order to be a disorder it MUST interfere with life in a negative way. Just being detail oriented or liking to collect things is NOT a disorder.

I have it. It is why i have nothing in savings and all my great photo stuff got sold, re-bought and sold again.

Cholentpot · Mar 20, 2023

Pieter12 said:
Maybe a good eye. Good craft is less likely.

A bit elitist thinking there.

There's more available information in 2023 than there ever was. I can learn the craft in far less time than back in the bad old days. In fact I am, I was never formally taught. I have no mentor other than kind people online. My content may or may not be great but my craft is pretty solid. When I started it wasn't. I was getting a few good frames on a roll if that. Focus, exposure, development were all over the place. But I persevered and if there's an issue with my craft now I generally can track down where the issue was in the workflow.

I've done my 'Ten Thousand' frames of exposure.

And guess what? I'm still learning. I don't think I'll ever be done.

Is the film craze dead?

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