Is the film craze dead?

UserDemos said:

I've been in the market for some new equipment (Fuji GX680iii) for some time, ...

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There is a GW680iii being sold locally here for $1100 Canadian. Its not a bad price for a more rare camera. Its the same basic model as a GW690. Even those here are dropping in price and unsold. I have been watching a Pentax 645 camera. I gave up on selling mine. I was asking $700, which was $50 less than I paid for the kit (lens included), and this is what the Japanese sellers are pricing around. Well this local seller has been listing his for $450, and it still goes unsold for well over a month and half. What they are selling for now is half of what I mentioned earlier. Nobody wants to pay high prices on gear anymore. You want it to sell, you REALLY need to drop your price by a lot.

Helge said:

There is a global crisis and according to some a recession (let’s bet that it’s roughly as short lived as the war).
What’s more the market has probably seen som saturation with hardware especially expensive hardware.

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I agree. Many people are finding it hard to pay rent and put food on the table these days. Bills go unpaid. The economy is hitting everyone and inflation isnt helping. It will correct at some point, if the world doesnt go all to Hell by that point.

Alex Benjamin said:

Take one look at one of the "How many cameras do you own?", "Which medium format camera do you use?" or "What's the best non-Leica rangefinder?" type thread, and you quickly realize that many, if not most, people here already have too many cameras and lenses. And newcomers don't come here to buy gear, they come here for advice, and get their gear on eBay, Marketplace or similar sites. Finally, as others have mentioned, money is short for many these days. So no, has nothing to do with a "dying film craze."

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Yup. One of those threads is my thread. Since Im tight on my budget too, my list of cameras has dwindled down to much less than what I first posted. I sold off quite a bit of them to help pay the bills. Some cameras lately are going unsold, so people just aren't buying anymore. And yes its all due to money being short. I can't say for certain if the economy will get better anytime soon though. World elites seem Hell bent on changing how we will live.

juan said:

There are heathens posting in this thread. There’s no such thing as too many cameras.

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Maybe. But tough times demand tough measures. If one needs food, well you can't eat your cameras. So they get sold off.

braxus said:

I have noticed any expensive photo gear is going unsold these days. That includes a digital Ive had up for sale for months. Its a tough market today with how the economy is going, and people finding it hard to make ends meet. I also see a lot of high prices on 35mm and 120 format cameras also going unsold. I find the Japanese sellers over inflate their pricing for their cameras by 50 percent, and why I say that, is if you go to resell that same camera here, it will only sell for half of the value you paid for it from the Japanese seller. The Japanese sellers havent really begun to lower their prices yet, holding on for that one person who would still pay their high price. There are the occasional exception to that, like with the really popular cameras, but for the most part I feel Im correct in that assumption.

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Locally, there's been an ad up on FB Marketplace for two Hasselblad 500 c/m kits for $1600USD (or one kit for $1k). I thought that these would go fast, but no takers after two weeks of being up.

There's also a (dirty looking) Canon F-1 priced at $50 which no one seems all that interested in.

I thought that USA pandemic-era spending was insane, and I figured that if someone were going to reap that manna, it ought to be me. But I figured that no way any of this could be sustainable, and it wasn't.

Sales in 2023 to date have been sort of "meh", though I can't say whether it's simply a seasonal funk or part of a larger trend.

I don't know if this is a significant enough data point to help determine whether or not the film craze is dead, but I attended Rennsport Reunion 7 this weekend, which is a huge annual Porsche enthusiast event in Monterey, CA ,and was shocked at the number of film cameras I saw. I'd go so far as to say that 1 in 10 people who had a camera had a film camera.

I attend a lot of car events like this and I do see the occasional film camera in use, but the number I saw this weekend was pretty surprising. And many people who had a digital camera or didn't have a camera at all came up to me and asked about my camera, waxed poetically about the past when they shot film, and seemed generally interested in the idea of shooting film today.

Coincidentally, this video also just showed up in my 'Recommended' list on YouTube. It was just published a few days ago. More evidence that film is still alive and well, especially among young photographers.

If anything perhaps Covid and Ukraine has strengthened film.
A. Hard times makes expensive things more alluring and prestigious.
B. Insecure times makes us long for the perceived stability and “realness” of what once was.

Nothing is dead and nothing was a "craze." The entire photographic process has changed completely for most people.

I went to a small rodeo here in town two or three weeks ago. I spotted two cameras other than the one I was carrying. But I would bet that literally hundreds, maybe thousands, of pictures were being taken almost continually. Everyone was using their phone and then sharing the picture digitally with someone else who wasn't there. If my kids or grandkids want a print of a picture they send it to me and have me print it out on my Canon. It is almost exactly what was imagined by George Eastman when he created Kodak but the technology is far different than anything he could have imagined at the time.

We buy and sell cameras here on this forum and on others. Stores like KEH and Used Photo Pro are buying and selling used equipment and doing a pretty good business it seems. But a lot of people are still giving film cameras away. A lady who knows me and knows that I regularly shoot film stopped me the other day and handed me her Pentax MZ-5 complete with lens, strap, bag and two rolls of Fuji film. She didn't want any money she just wanted someone who understood film cameras to have it. I didn't have the heart to tell her that the bag and the film were worth more than the camera itself.

Earlier this year I was given two point and shoot compacts; one with a roll of film still in it, another a 2mp digital; and a plastic fantastic 35mm slr with a corroded battery. None of those cameras were worth enough to pay for the shipping to get them anywhere to anybody.

I know people are buying and selling cameras and buying film, but this is not the same market that we remember and I do not believe it ever will be. The survivors will be specialty companies like Adox and others who can recognize what this market wants and get it to them quickly. It isn't really Pentax or Leica I'm concerned about, it is the film manufacturers.

I myself am enjoying what is happening. But I am just shy of 70 years old and have a nice house over my head. I can still afford to buy groceries, my kids are grown and have their own lives and my wife is willing to support my hobbies. But I am really no different than the guy who owns that beautifully restored 1957 Triumph sports car and drives it around town every other weekend or trailers it to a couple of meets in Los Angeles and Las Vegas each year. When I buy that new film camera that Pentax is building I will be doing the same thing that my neighbor was doing when he bought that Mazda Miata sports car a few years back.

Photography the way we practice it is now a hobby. As a hobby it will survive just fine. There are still a few people who use digital cameras for a profession. That is what is keeping Canon and Nikon alive and if you look at the sales figures I think Canon has actually won that race. Leica is basically the Ferrari of the photographic world and if they are smart they will stay in that niche. They own it now but if they ever leave it someone else will grab it quick because it is one of the few lucrative markets left in the photography world. Selling limited edition boutique products to wealthy customers always pays well.

The reality is, photography is really not dead. But it is now something different. It has actually gone back to its' roots. It is becoming what Julia Margaret Cameron would recognize. Even digital has become overrun by your phone and as a profession photography will be overrun by AI, the smartphones that are in everyone's pocket and the digital cameras on every stop light around the developed world.

If you want to see what film photography will eventually become then take a look at the horse and carriage trade. It will always be there but I see home made wooden film cameras like the Zero Image or Harman Titan along with Brownies or Holgas complete with meniscus lenses and single speed shutters. All of them using hand coated film. I broke my crystal ball so I am almost certainly wrong; that won't happen for awhile even if I'm right. But you might want to sell that Pentax 645 while people still know what it is and can buy batteries and film for it.

Pioneer said:

That is what is keeping Canon and Nikon alive and if you look at the sales figures I think Canon has actually won that race. Leica is basically the Ferrari of the photographic world and if they are smart they will stay in that niche.

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I don't know where you get your sales figures but Canon is dead in the water compared with Nikon who are actually getting massive sale from the innovative 'Z' series. As for Leica (a brand I use), they are far, far away from Ferrari in terms of innovation, but not in terms of premium product pricing if that is how you prefer to judge cameras. When did Leica last 'innovate' anything other than borrowing bits here and there, probably the last time was 2006 with the M8, and that was all bought in technology from Kodak (and still behind the Epson R-D1 from 2004).

250swb said:

I don't know where you get your sales figures but Canon is dead in the water compared with Nikon who are actually getting massive sale from the innovative 'Z' series. As for Leica (a brand I use), they are far, far away from Ferrari in terms of innovation, but not in terms of premium product pricing if that is how you prefer to judge cameras. When did Leica last 'innovate' anything other than borrowing bits here and there, probably the last time was 2006 with the M8, and that was all bought in technology from Kodak (and still behind the Epson R-D1 from 2004).

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The Leica S is unrivaled in both innovation and price. The images are astounding.

Pioneer said:

…and the digital cameras on every stop light around the developed world…..

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Not in Montana. Our legislature outlawed them a couple years ago and a recent effort to repeal that failed. Of course, that is assuming that Montana is part of the “developed world.”

VinceInMT said:

Not in Montana. Our legislature outlawed them a couple years ago and a recent effort to repeal that failed. Of course, that is assuming that Montana is part of the “developed world.”

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I am glad to hear that as they may be one of the few States that have outlawed their use.

...and I really wasn't trying to pick on Montana or imply they are not part of the developed world.

As for whether Nikon or Canon are selling more digital cameras than the other I really don't care. But the last information I received from Petapixel, Canon's market share had increased to 59.8% in 2022 while Nikon had dropped to 33.9%. Sorry, I wasn't trying to say that one was better than the other nor was I trying to offend the many Nikon fans on this forum. But I didn't spend my entire day comparing sales figures from various sources and I am still not interested in doing that. I'll let you guys do it. But if Petapixel is right I would suggest that Nikon seems to be having big sales problems whether they wish to admit it or not.

Just in case you are interested, and I suspect you aren't, Pentax, my favorite horse, is not even in the running at 5.8%, though according to Petapixel they have recently doubled their market share. Enjoy your week.

So, with respect to being part of the Developed World, you're comparing Nevada and Montana?...You both use film cameras

takilmaboxer said:

So, with respect to being part of the Developed World, you're comparing Nevada and Montana?...You both use film cameras

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Yeah. It does sound a bit silly doesn't it.

takilmaboxer said:

So, with respect to being part of the Developed World, you're comparing Nevada and Montana?...You both use film cameras

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And my car doesn’t have cup holders.

VinceInMT said:

And my car doesn’t have cup holders.

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So where do you put your beer can?

VinceInMT said:

And my car doesn’t have cup holders.

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Mine does. I bought a plastic tray with a couple of them to put on the transmission tunnel next to the floor shifter in my Chevy truck. That is how I keep my coffee warm when the snow is flying.

In New Mexico, they simply plop the 12 pack between the bucket seats. The camera is relegated to the back seat. And you don't want to be on the open road down here during the first snow, when the roads are really slick. Much like Montana or Nevada, the weather can turn from rain to snow almost overnight. The summer's dust turns to mud, and then freezes.

Pieter12 said:

So where do you put your beer can?

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When I was a kid, the men kept the beer bottle between their legs while they drove.

When I moved to Montana 32 years ago there was no “open container” law. It was illegal to drive drunk but OK to drink and drive. The state was going to lose Federal highway dollars if they didn’t change that so they did, along with a seat belt requirement law. Interestingly, the state had a motorcycle helmet requirement that was repealed (in the 80s, I think) and still doesn’t require them. I certainly don’t drink alcohol and drive and I never drink coffee so I don’t miss cup holders in my cars.

And, back on topic, as far as I know thre is only one place iin my city where I can buy film (black and white anyway) and it’s a small boutique that just resells what they buy from B&H.

It was exactly the same when we moved here in 1993, but it has changed. No driveup booze, no helmet laws.
There are two traditional photo stores that still sell film, at very high prices. But a small photo printing outfit that caters to the college set, sells a good variety of film at more reasonable prices. They sell all the rebranded Foma film, which the kids love, but don't actually sell the Foma stuff. The last time I stopped in to buy some HP5, there were three 20-somethings behind the counter, and three 60-somethings buying film. They all admired my 1936 Ikoflex. Business, they tell me, is quite good.

takilmaboxer said:

It was exactly the same when we moved here in 1993, but it has changed. No driveup booze, no helmet laws.
There are two traditional photo stores that still sell film, at very high prices. But a small photo printing outfit that caters to the college set, sells a good variety of film at more reasonable prices. They sell all the rebranded Foma film, which the kids love, but don't actually sell the Foma stuff. The last time I stopped in to buy some HP5, there were three 20-somethings behind the counter, and three 60-somethings buying film. They all admired my 1936 Ikoflex. Business, they tell me, is quite good.

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We had a camera/film store that closed a few years ago. He had cameras and equipment to buy/rent and sold an assortment of film. He knew his stuff but some people shied away due to his political stances that he made on social media. Just like here, politics and photography don’t mix (unless it’s the content of the imagoes.)

At the university I attended a few years ago, the basic photo class was all film-based and the professor bulk loaded Arista EDU for the students, the cost of which was covered in the class fee.

Pioneer said:

I am glad to hear that as they may be one of the few States that have outlawed their use.

...and I really wasn't trying to pick on Montana or imply they are not part of the developed world.

As for whether Nikon or Canon are selling more digital cameras than the other I really don't care. But the last information I received from Petapixel, Canon's market share had increased to 59.8% in 2022 while Nikon had dropped to 33.9%. Sorry, I wasn't trying to say that one was better than the other nor was I trying to offend the many Nikon fans on this forum. But I didn't spend my entire day comparing sales figures from various sources and I am still not interested in doing that. I'll let you guys do it. But if Petapixel is right I would suggest that Nikon seems to be having big sales problems whether they wish to admit it or not.

Just in case you are interested, and I suspect you aren't, Pentax, my favorite horse, is not even in the running at 5.8%, though according to Petapixel they have recently doubled their market share. Enjoy your week.

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Los Angeles City outlawed traffic cameras after a little over a year after they were installed. After the initial impact, people went back to doing things the way they do them, right or wrong.

Film (especially 35mm) is being different, like always, from digital. It's haptic medium. It needs one to think, before hitting the shutter. As some rolls (135) nowadays hitting the 26 EUR mark for a 135-36 roll (colorfilm, of course) it's nothing for the spray & pray shooters, but it never was, ever. Well, i'd say onto a roll i'd like to have some ~15 keepers if possible, otherwise it doesn't make sense, in terms of cost. Thanks god, b&w is still being cheaper, around ~6 EUR per roll. (APX 100/400, Fomapan 100/200, etc) It's refreshing, to just have your camera, your prime lens, a roll of film loaded, and you're good to go. I can truly say, i'd prefer my S2b always, anytime, before i use my D700...5D II, or anything else digital...but due to cost factor, i shoot here & there also digital, a bit over the year. And soon, when i have my CLE into hands, it would being the same, before shooting digital...

“Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication." - Leonardo da Vinci

And that is exactly the point, whileas the Leica M series (even digital) is being so successful, simplicity (simply) is king ! no 6856 cluttered menus, no 23 sublevel of options, -features...gosh, it is really a mess, can't stand it. I hate menues on current digital gear.

I shoot digital pretty much the same way I shoot film. I returned from a trip to Ireland and had taken all of 6 photos with the digital camera I had taken along. Just because you can take hundreds of exposures doesn't mean you have to with digital. I don't even look at the screen after a shot. I usually reserve that for when I take a break.

The advantage of digital is for sports or other action photography where a large number of shots make it easier to capture moving subjects. And it makes a great substitute for a Polaroid for checking lighting and exposure. I also only shoot color with a digital camera because I don't process or print color film myself and chromes are out of the question for my purposes.

For paid shoots (something I won't do) digital is nice to be able to show the client or model what you're doing, along the lines of Polaroids in the past.

I never chimp on location with digital. No color calibrated screen, also very small, what gives? Of course, digital does have its advantages, but it doesn't have any kind of emotion for my taste, or soul. It's pixels to RAW files, not photons to photographs. Just a file, floating onto a memory card somewhere, literally...no hard feelings. YMMV.