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You're welcome (back) Henning. It's always interesting with some industry insight. Side topic, but have you gotten any industry info about Fuji film production lately?

Thanks!
Well, Infos about Fujifilm: I have heard one rumour, and just lately got one reliable info which would be an indication that the rumour could be right.
But the rumour is so far really only a rumour, and not from a source, which we Germans would define as "belastbar" (one of these numerous wonderful German words I as a scientist love so much ......😍😉).
Therefore I will not talk about that rumour publicly.
But if there is truth in that rumour, then our honourable photrio member Agulliver will not be obliged to fulfill his promise to "eat his most smelly socks"........😂🤣.

Best regards,
Henning
 
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Excellent that you returned to photrio 🙏!
Over the years I have learned so much from your explanations and numerous tests about films, chemistry, lenses, cameras and film production.

Thank you very much!
I am glad to hear that my work has helped you so much.

Best regards,
Henning
 
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@Henning Serger Thank you for the detailed write-up. Can you speculate how much money EK makes per roll of 135mm CN consumer film?

Yes, I could speculate on that topic, but I will not. I don't think it would be helpful in any way.
Only Eastman Kodak and Kodak Alaris know the exact terms of their contract. We have to accept that.

Best regards,
Henning
 

faberryman

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The 48MP mode on the 14 Pro doesn’t even begin to touch a 24MP camera with a 24mm lens either.
NSS. The sensor size for the 48 MP camera in the iPhone 14 Pro is 9.8mm x 7.3mm vs 36mm x 24mm in a full frame camera. It is like comparing Minox to 35mm film.
 
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Ernst-Jan

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Thanks!
Well, Infos about Fujifilm: I have heard one rumour, and just lately got one reliable info which would be an indication that the rumour could be right.
But the rumour is so far really only a rumour, and not from a source, which we Germans would define as "belastbar" (one of these numerous wonderful German words I as a scientist love so much ......😍😉).
Therefore I will not talk about that rumour publicly.
But if there is truth in that rumour, then our honourable photrio member Agulliver will not be obliged to fulfill his promise to "eat his most smelly socks"........😂🤣.

Best regards,
Henning

After seeing the newest "Im Westen nichts neues" movie I thought that I recalled the story differently and decided to read the book again - the last time was probably 16 years ago in highschool. I decided to do it in German, because, yeah, why not, some challenge is good. Gulaschkanone (=fieldkitchen) is my favourite word 😆

That sounds great that Agulliver doesn't have to eat his socks. Hopefully soon there will be CN 120 again from them.
 

TJones

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The one I see most often is 'Archival pigment print'. Not quite as fancy as giclée 😋

I wonder how many “archival pigment prints” are actually printed with dye-based ink instead of pigment ink. That description seems to have become the standard, regardless of ink type.
 

DREW WILEY

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T Jones - I've stated it many times before on this forum, but inkjet prints are NOT pigment prints, archival or otherwise. That is just plain public ignorance or else it's deceptive marketing. Anyone can look up the respective patents. The inks do involve certain pigments, but also lakes (dyed inert pigment particles), along with quite an amount of relatively ordinary dye. Dye printers per se are a separate parallel technology.

The priority is getting the inks through those tiny nozzles, first (and most pigments are just too big to do that), and the programmability of the colorants, second. Therefore, since the colorant makeup of any print is liable to differ among the hues present, it is inevitable that these various hues will fade at different rates, making any kind of hard extrapolation of acceptable display lifespan basically BS, as if there weren't enough squirrelly variables to begin with.

Monochrome black and white inkjet prints are in a category of their own, with their own set of variables, depending. Those have the advantage of using different black colorants than those typically used in color inkjet work.
 
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RalphLambrecht

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Seems out of the blue.

It lasted too long to call it a crraze and it ain't dead by any stretch of the imagination. There are far more pictures taken on digital devices than on film.
 

koraks

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Anyone can look up the respective patents.

Perhaps you could be so kind as to point us all towards the parents you refer to, and more importantly, concrete evidence that contemporary inkjet inks are indeed widely using lake pigments as well as dyes within the same inks.

The problem with inkjet in this context is that it's a rather broad and complex domain that furthermore is evolving at a rapid pace. As such, statements like the ones you have put forth are inherently limited in their scope - they may apply to a certain class of inks that is or was used in a certain timeframe. But that doesn't make them universally true.

For those willing to search for it, there is indeed some information from which compositions of inkjet inks can be reconstructed, at least in part. This information does not support your claims for currently used pigment inkjet inks.

The question whether lakes should be considered pigments or not is largely a matter of linguistics. In the world of artist's paints, lakes are considered pigments as much as mineral pigments, even though their chemical composition is different. Then again, the chemical composition of pigments varies wildly anyway, with many mineral pigments being notoriously inarchival, while many widely used lakes have proven to be highly stable in demanding applications. As such, the attempt to paint (no pun intended) inkjet pigments in a bad light because they widely use lakes is a doubtful rhetoric device, and nothing more than that.

Finally, let's not forget that the widely used alternative to pigment inkjet for photographic and fine arts applications is RA4/AgX, which is of course entirely dye-based, with these dyes being demonstrably unstable especially under influence of UV radiation, heat and radicals such as ozone.

Whether pigment inkjet is a superior alternative, only time can tell. It comes with its own set of challenges. One of them is apparently that it evokes a strong mistrust in the conservative art world - which is interesting, given that actual artists have often proven to be much more interested in the potential for expressing themselves in materials than in the technical intricacies we tend to lose ourselves in on this forum and many other online and offline communities.

When inkjet printers became reasonably decent at photographic reproduction, John Riddy quickly got himself an Epson because he felt that closing the loop between seeing the scene and holding the print was essential to his work, as well as taking full control over the process of photographic creation. While he might have worried about the lack of archival stability of the monochrome prints from his dye printer, apparently the advantages of the technology flipped the balance, strongly.

All the time spent on arguing whether lakes are pigments and what this means for archival stability is not spent on making photographs or prints. Credibility, in my view, lies with those who focus on those areas.
 

DREW WILEY

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Just do what I said. This has been fact all along. If you understood how difficult it is to get more than just a few pigments ground that small, you'd understand why it is essential to supplement them with lakes and dyes per se. I do have a background in connections to the pigment industry. There are certain inherent limits. This is all VERY well known, including by those who test the results. I personally find the gamut of current color inkjet output to be rather disappointing in general; BUT I do know certain individuals with the skill set to write their own custom printing software, and well as strong enough prior backgrounds in darkroom color printing to know what they want. And that does make a difference. But even they did better color work back in their darkroom days, in my opinion. One of them, who owns a digital lab, still does his personal work in dye transfer, and has the saying, "No pain, no gain."

Sometimes convenience wins out, especially if one is getting paid by an inkjet company to promote their products. And when one of them told me he switched over due to all the "control" it provided (intermediately, post-scanning), that was just more promotional talk. "Control" can easily get out of hand; and he had no choice but to switch because Ciba was already doomed. Likewise with certain former dye transfer printers.

I'm not anti-inkjet at all. I just don't like its look relative to my own work. But I do have to reinforce the fact that it's highly misrepresented in popular jargon and a lot of galleries as being something it's not. Real color pigment printing is something else entirely. But just like any other media, inkjet is just a took kit, which in the right hands can do some stunning things. I happen to prefer the greater transparency of actual dyes, as well as the higher detail and nuance of optical enlargements, plus the greater degree of tactility of darkroom work.

And color dyes aren't necessarily a bad thing at all. They can be tailored for permanence too, and have been. But anything subjected to serious UV isn't going to last as long as it should. In fact, a lot of art store pigments are lakes made from dyes. That's the only way certain colors can be obtained, at least in volume affordable, nontoxic scale.
 
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koraks

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Just do what I said.
Ah. Very helpful. I was hoping for some more concrete evidence than "just believe me because I say so and I know some people". FYI: I've worked for a company heavily invested in inkjet, both on its own R&D as well as working with pigment dispersions of major manufacturers. Dyes weren't part of in-house manufacturing, nor were they part of the supply chain. The simple reason is that no dyes were in the inks.

If you want to do a simple test, take some filter paper and drop some inkjet inks onto it. If it has dyes as well as pigments, you'll see the different color bands emerge as the ink spreads through the paper. I've cleaned parts of my Epson pigment printer several times and the hues are pure - no signs of different colorants being used within a single ink.

Indeed, the normal CMYK set is fairly standard with C being Pb15:3 or 15:4 (a highly stable phthalocyanine lake), M is usually a quinacridone such as Pr122 and for yellow there are a couple of options including fairly modern benzimidazoles. Black is always a simple carbon "lamp" black with a small particles size.

Fine art pigment printing (non-inkjet) uses the same pigments/lakes. Look at Ultrastable or Calvin Grier's prints. Of course not the pigment prints by Mme. Yevonde and undoubtedly many, many others, who used unstable and by modern standards somewhat primitive synthetic pigments (much like Rothko).

For those interested, there are a few white papers online by Cabott employees dealing with pigment selection and in particular pigment dispersion. They support what I said above.

PS: pigments for these applications are not "ground". They're not mineral pigments that come as rocks and need to be milled into a powder. That's easy to see if you realize how lakes work, even without a chemical background. I'm sure your contacts in the paints industry can explain this if you asked.

Anyway, let's get back on topic with the conclusion that printing is certainly not a roadblock in digital photography. After all, virtually all prints on all imaginable media produced today are digitally originated. Apparently we do just fine that way.
 

DREW WILEY

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Koraks - it is simply impossible to make or dispense any of those inkjet systems on the premise of actual pigments alone. Not only is it impossible to achieve all the specific colorant hues involved without resorting to organic dyes, but even less would it be possible to get them through those tiny inkjet nozzles. It's hell to do it even with architectural pigments. Inkjet systems don't use
CMYK process colors at all, but a quantity of colorants which involve complex blends. Your allegedly definitive test that dyes aren't present is technically incorrect because you don't sufficiently admit how those dyes are bound to the colorant particles themselves; that's part of the whole R&D process behind it. No dyes come out by themselves, or else the system wouldn't consistently work.

Lakes are indeed a complex topic (the term is derived from lac), but should be differentiated from true pigments. Permanence is a whole other layer to the topic; but as an example, a yellow mono-azo lake like Charles Berger of Richard Kaufman chose might be more permanent than a yellow azo dye, but not as permanent as a true cadmium yellow pigment. Nearly all the most permanent red pigments are toxic; hence nearly all the commercially sold true red colorants are some kind of quinacridone lake. The purest most permanent blues and greens are extremely expensive and somewhat toxic, so the next best thing is thalo colorants, which aren't as pure-hued.

Another problems with inkjet is blacks themselves. Lampblack is not a neutral black at all, and trends purplish if lightened. Mineral blacks, on the other hand, trend greenish. Hence the need for more than one black - the darkest essentially being equivalent to a K printer, and the others deep gray. And this is one of real kinks still needing to be worked out in inkjet, because these often dry at mismatched sheens.

But I can do without your condescending attitude. I've been involved with this for half a century, and was in contact with those in the forefront of advancing pigment technology both in the US and EU right up till the time I retired (most of them are now retired too). The whole question of a true process set of nano-pigments is the still undiscovered holy grail, but there are people working on it on an entirely different premise than anything currently inkjet-oriented.

You are actually way way behind the curve by referring to the kind of pigments used by Ultrastable (Charles Berger) or Galvin Grier. All kinds of R&D is going on, mainly for sake of auto and industrial coatings, but with spinoff potential to other applications as well like color printing if the right colorants can be developed. And yes, pigments are highly ground for sake of dispersion in automatic programmable systems. They have to be. I had accounts with the finest grinders in the world. That's something done on industrial scale, not by mortar and pestle. And you don't find those products in art stores. I made an ultra-fine process set myself simply for experimental testing, but with true pigment printing in mind, not inkjet. But I don't have the time to undertake that kind of printing myself.

Pigment dispersion technology itself can be proprietary and hush-hush in some cases. The kinds of companies are multi-billion dollar enterprises with massive R&D labs. Their job is to come up with endless "what if" formulations, with only a small percentage of those ever likely to see the light of day commercially. But all it can take is one really big home run, just like in all the Biotech and Pharmaceutical R&D around here. Some grad student up at the University gets an idea, then a couple decades later he's a billionaire. And if there is another big seismic change in color printing, taking the place of inkjet in due turn, it will be due to research with something else in its sights all along, as a spinoff of that.

But please don't keep asking me to prove this or that to you, when if you took the time to dig more deeply into all of this, you could find out for yourself. Photrio isn't really the kind of place these things are discussed anyway. And I haven't stated a single thing that isn't common knowledge to the industry itself. I've actually given classes concerning the usage of nano-pigments, and don't see the need to give any longer sermons than I already have simply to convince web jockeys unwilling to do their own homework. There are mountains of patents out there relative to inkjet printing, with only a few of those themselves having actually seen the light of day commercially.

The mere fact that so many mismatched colorants are used in inkjet systems means that one of its weak points is inevitable differential fading. At least with Cibachrome, all three of the azo dyes involved faded at the same rate, so no color shift was apparent until almost the whole print finally crashed. But I doubt that I'll see any replacement technology to inkjet printing within my lifetime. There are still big hurdles. And true pigment color printing will continue to be mostly a hands-on procedure practiced by relatively few.
 
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Sirius Glass

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Koraks - it is simply impossible to make or dispense any of those inkjet systems on the premise of actual pigments alone. Not only is it impossible to achieve all the specific colorant hues involved without resorting to organic dyes, but even less would it be possible to get them through those tiny inkjet nozzles. It's hell to do it even with architectural pigments. Inkjet systems don't use
CMYK process colors at all, but a quantity of colorants which involve complex blends. Your allegedly definitive test that dyes aren't present is technically incorrect because you don't sufficiently admit how those dyes are bound to the colorant particles themselves; that's part of the whole R&D process behind it. No dyes come out by themselves, or else the system wouldn't consistently work.

Lakes are indeed a complex topic (the term is derived from lac), but should be differentiated from true pigments. Permanence is a whole other layer to the topic; but as an example, a yellow mono-azo lake like Charles Berger of Richard Kaufman chose might be more permanent than a yellow azo dye, but not as permanent as a true cadmium yellow pigment. Nearly all the most permanent red pigments are toxic; hence nearly all the commercially sold true red colorants are some kind of quinacridone lake. The purest most permanent blues and greens are extremely expensive and somewhat toxic, so the next best thing is thalo colorants, which aren't as pure-hued.

Another problems with inkjet is blacks themselves. Lampblack is not a neutral black at all, and trends purplish if lightened. Mineral blacks, on the other hand, trend greenish. Hence the need for more than one black - the darkest essentially being equivalent to a K printer, and the others deep gray. And this is one of real kinks still needing to be worked out in inkjet, because these often dry at mismatched sheens.

But I can do without your condescending attitude. I've been involved with this for half a century, and was in contact with those in the forefront of advancing pigment technology both in the US and EU right up till the time I retired (most of them are now retired too). The whole question of a true process set of nano-pigments is the still undiscovered holy grail, but there are people working on it on an entirely different premise than anything currently inkjet-oriented.

You are actually way way behind the curve by referring to the kind of pigments used by Ultrastable (Charles Berger) or Galvin Grier. All kinds of R&D is going on, mainly for sake of auto and industrial coatings, but with spinoff potential to other applications as well like color printing is the right colorants can be developed. And yes, pigments are highly ground for sake of dispersion in automatic programmable systems. They have to be. I had accounts with the finest grinders in the world. That's something done on industrial scale, not by mortar and pestle. And you don't find those products in art stores. I made an ultra-fine process set myself simply for experimental testing, but with true pigment printing in mind, not inkjet. But I don't have the time to undertake that kind of printing myself.

Pigment dispersion technology itself can be proprietary and hush-hush in some cases. The kinds of companies are multi-billion dollar enterprises with massive R&D labs. Their job is to come up with endless "what if" formulations, with only a small percentage of those ever likely to see the light of day commercially. But all it can take is one really big home run, just like in all the Biotech and Pharmaceutical R&D around here. Some grad student up at the University gets an idea, then a couple decades later he's a billionaire. And if there is another big seismic change in color printing, taking the place of inkjet in due turn, it will be due to research with something else in its sights all along, as a spinoff of that.

But please don't keep asking me to prove this or that to you, when if you took the time to dig more deeply into all of this, you could find out for yourself. Photrio isn't really the kind of place these things are discussed anyway. And I haven't stated a single thing that isn't common knowledge to the industry itself. I've actually given classes concerning the usage of nano-pigments, and don't see the need to given any longer sermons than I already have simply to convince web jockeys unwilling to do their own homework. There are mountains of patents out there relative to inkjet printing, with only a few of those themselves having actually seen the light of day commercially. The fact is, the mere fact so many mismatched colorants are used in inkjet systems mean that one of its weak points
is inevitable difference fading. At least with Cibachrome, all three of the azo dyes involved faded at the same rate, so no color shift was apparent, until almost the whole print finally crashed.

Additionally the combination of inkjet ink or another ink and paper can make a big difference.
 
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