Is straight photography dead?

[Sirius Glass]

That reflection (in the 2nd) is from a mirror hanging on the wall inside the shop and reflecting te text which is written on the window, not a subject from outside the shop reflected on that window.
A little confusing but well spotted by the photographer.

Thank you. I wondered about that before I posted.

 

[Don_ih]

I always find arguments about definitions to be so much fun!
The only photograph that I can think of as being essentially "honest" or "true" or even "straight" is a copy photo of a two dimensional object - such as a document.
Otherwise, every photograph is an allegory - it hints at what might have been in front of a camera, rather than being an exact representation of it. Sometimes the "hint" is really clear. Other times it is really murky.

Essentially all this does is muddy the water. It doesn't serve anyone's understanding to conflate "honest," "true," and "straight" - and then claim those are contrary to "allegory".

It's better to preserve a more natural notion of "straight" as being "undeviated" from source to result. That doesn't need to mean "honest" or "true" but just whatever you got most directly. In other words, let it be that a straight photo can be dishonest or untrue. And also allow for the possibility that a composite or other modified photo can be honest and true.

It's important to keep the ideas distinct. Otherwise, you can't even follow what people have a problem with.

 

[Sirius Glass]

Is it that simple, though? W. Eugene Smith added, from another negative, the hand and saw handle at the bottom right of this photo because he felt it made for better composition and added depth and meaning, does that mean that the photo is no longer "straight"? After all, it is, essentially, a fabricated photo, corresponding not to what was seen but to what the photographer wants to show, and the story he wants to tell.

Also shows that composites have been possible for quite a while.

Correct it is not a straight photograph and should be labelled for what it is, a manipulation of the original negative.

 

[MattKing]

It's better to preserve a more natural notion of "straight" as being "undeviated" from source to result

If I was going to look for a description, I would probably do so using negatives - photographs that don't have certain things in them. This is the sort of definition that Sirius seems comfortable with.

The quoted part of my post was me trying to say essentially the same thing as Don. Except I'm uncomfortable with "undeviated", because every two dimensional photograph is very much a deviation from three dimensional reality.

 

[Sirius Glass]

In all this straight talk, where do images like Moonrise of Ansel fall? What about any infrared photographs?

Neither to me would be straight, but they were just records of what was in front of the lens.

Is there even a chance to define that line of what alterations retain straight designation and where do they move away ?

Moonrise of Ansel - nothing added to the negative, heavy dodging and burning.
Infrared photographs - straight photograph, that is what the negative recorded.

"Neither to me would be straight, but they were just records of what was in front of the lens." The problem is merely yours, put your head on straight.

 

[Pieter12]

Maybe collectable for you but not for me and others. New and different is not always wonderful and great.

I am not stating what I consider collectable, just what the galleries are offering to collectors. There seems to be a lot of that sort of work out there, so it must be selling. Many collectors collect themes, such as landscape, historical, floral, documentary, staged, etc. and aren't really interested in much else.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

Non-sequitor Alan. The copy photograph is a fairly accurate copy of something real. Making the photo doesn't change the honesty, or lack of honesty, of that which is before the camera.

Tell that to the judge.

 

[Pieter12]

Tell that to the judge.

I'll keep that in mind when I go to a show of Wee Gee's photos.

 

[MattKing]

Tell that to the judge.

I have led and relied upon photographic evidence in a trial, and have challenged photographic evidence in a trial.
By the way, photocopies are dealt with similarly in court.

 

[Hassasin]

Moonrise of Ansel - nothing added to the negative, heavy dodging and burning.
Infrared photographs - straight photograph, that is what the negative recorded.

"Neither to me would be straight, but they were just records of what was in front of the lens." The problem is merely yours, put your head on straight.

We could talk straight, crooked etc all day, there will be no consensus on what that is supposed to cover. If I'm not mistaken F64 dismissed pictorialists as .. not straight, while most of those images were not that different from say Moonrise or infrared or anything that was heavily treated post exposure on film.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

I have led and relied upon photographic evidence in a trial, and have challenged photographic evidence in a trial.
By the way, photocopies are dealt with similarly in court.

As long as there's no attempt to deceive the court. In my example in the murder trial, the only thing changed that made the evidence bogus was the resolution of the video. There was no cloning, parts removed, or any other changes made from the original video except resolution. Yet that was enough to fool the court, at first, and almost convict an innocent man.


While most photos and videos don't rise to this level of importance, journalistic news photos, commercial photos, and videos, change public opinions and sell products and ideas often due to deceptions of photos and print. It's an important issue. Currently I've checked photos of what my vacation hotel rooms will look like in Paris and London when we visit soon. I hope we're getting that large King size bed they show in the pictures and not a cot.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

We could talk straight, crooked etc all day, there will be no consensus on what that is supposed to cover. If I'm not mistaken F64 dismissed pictorialists as .. not straight, while most of those images were not that different from say Moonrise or infrared or anything that was heavily treated post exposure on film.

Moonrise and Photoshop are why photographers have become better at editing than photography. Why learn how to shoot when you can more easily clone later?

AI will make it even easier. You won't even need a camera. Instead of hunting for discontinued Fuji film, you'll buy a memory card loaded with "mind" images. Plug it into your computer, and a few short words later, and your computer will assemble the photo into something distinctive.

 

[Alex Benjamin]

As long as there's no attempt to deceive the court. In my example in the murder trial, the only thing changed that made the evidence bogus was the resolution of the video. There was no cloning, parts removed, or any other changes made from the original video except resolution. Yet that was enough to fool the court, at first, and almost convict an innocent man.


While most photos and videos don't rise to this level of importance, journalistic news photos, commercial photos, and videos, change public opinions and sell products and ideas often due to deceptions of photos and print. It's an important issue. Currently I've checked photos of what my vacation hotel rooms will look like in Paris and London when we visit soon. I hope we're getting that large King size bed they show in the pictures and not a cot.

You guys have had this conversation before. Twice.

In fact, this whole thread has a groundhog day feel to it...

Art photos are manipulations

All art photo images are manipulations. Sometimes people get doctrinaire and make pronouncements that photography should be about an objective rendering of reality with no “manipulations” of the image. When I was 17 years old I remember talking to an older family friend that was a passionate...

www.photrio.com

is photography supposed to be reality ?

i guess the title says it all is a photograph or photography ( generally speaking i don't care of the format, or language ( digital or analog ) supposed to be reality ? personally i don't think it is, even though its said to be a "mirror" more like a mirror that whoever being the camera...

www.photrio.com

 

[Hassasin]

Moonrise and Photoshop are why photographers have become better at editing than photography. Why learn how to shoot when you can more easily clone later?

AI will make it even easier. You won't even need a camera. Instead of hunting for discontinued Fuji film, you'll buy a memory card loaded with "mind" images. Plug it into your computer, and a few short words later, and your computer will assemble the photo into something distinctive.

AI is already making fake photographs (just saw one today of Pope Francis in a white winter coat, all fake and 100% created by AI robot, crazy stuff)

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

You guys have had this conversation before. Twice.

In fact, this whole thread has a groundhog day feel to it...

Art photos are manipulations

All art photo images are manipulations. Sometimes people get doctrinaire and make pronouncements that photography should be about an objective rendering of reality with no “manipulations” of the image. When I was 17 years old I remember talking to an older family friend that was a passionate...

www.photrio.com

is photography supposed to be reality ?

i guess the title says it all is a photograph or photography ( generally speaking i don't care of the format, or language ( digital or analog ) supposed to be reality ? personally i don't think it is, even though its said to be a "mirror" more like a mirror that whoever being the camera...

www.photrio.com

Most threads in the forum are like Groundhog Day. Sort of like my photos.

 

[Sirius Glass]

I have led and relied upon photographic evidence in a trial, and have challenged photographic evidence in a trial.
By the way, photocopies are dealt with similarly in court.

I had a case which I won because when I showed a 11"x14" print, the opposing attorney made the mistake of challenging it and called it a FauxTow$hop digital photograph. I produced the negative which the judge studied for a minute and then declared me the winner in the case.

 

[Rolleiflexible]

I had a case which I won because when I showed a 11"x14" print, the opposing attorney made the mistake of challenging it and called it a FauxTow$hop digital photograph. I produced the negative which the judge studied for a minute and then declared me the winner in the case.

OTOH there's Morris Eisen, the Pothole King of NYC. Many years ago, there was a city ordnance that presumed city liability for any damages caused by potholes deeper than six inches. Morris, a famous personal injury lawyer, had rulers made up at half-scale. They would then stick the ruler in the pothole to make it look deeper than it was, take a photo, and ring up the city for damages.

That, and a variety of other frauds, landed Mr. Eisen in jail. But it was fun while it lasted.

 

[Alex Benjamin]

Most threads in the forum are like Groundhog Day. Sort of like my photos.

If your photos end up being as funny as the movie, at least you'll have that.

This thread isn't, though. I keep hoping Bill Murray will appear and add some much needed jocularity, but sadly, no...

 

[Arthurwg]

Just to be clear, I'm not talking about tweaking contrast using a yellow filter or dodging/burning. I'm talking about the sort of manipulations that resulted in images like these:

Much to my surprise I rather like these pictures.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

OTOH there's Morris Eisen, the Pothole King of NYC. Many years ago, there was a city ordnance that presumed city liability for any damages caused by potholes deeper than six inches. Morris, a famous personal injury lawyer, had rulers made up at half-scale. They would then stick the ruler in the pothole to make it look deeper than it was, take a photo, and ring up the city for damages.

That, and a variety of other frauds, landed Mr. Eisen in jail. But it was fun while it lasted.

The way the rule worked, was that it had to be reported to the city before someone could claim damage from it. The city was only liable after the pothole was reported. So some company, I don;t know if it was his, would file potholes carte blanche with the city . Then when someone fell in or damaged their car, he would check if it was filed. If so, they would then file a claim. I wasn't aware of the 6" ruler thing.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

Much to my surprise I rather like these pictures.

Photos especially like the first are obviously manipulated. So they wouldn't be in the category of "honesty".

 

[Arthurwg]

Are you suggesting that this:

Is the same as this?

I think they're entirely different.



I didn't suggest that at all - if I somehow implied it that wasn't my intention. I was simply pointing out that I don't see much in the way of straight photography in books/competitions/galleries from contemporary photographers so my thesis was that it is dead/dying - or at least temporarily out of fashion.

Excellent example of what the OP is talking about. Robert Frank's picture shows a skill and sensibility that lifts it out of simple "documentary" and makes it art. Gregory Crewdson's picture, on the other hand, illustrates exactly what is wrong with much contemporary photography. It's false and empty of real meaning and may have been constructed by AI. Indeed, his position as head of photography at Yale has done a great disservice.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

Crewdson seems to be a movie maker using one photo to tell a story.

 

[Arthurwg]

Is it that simple, though? W. Eugene Smith added, from another negative, the hand and saw handle at the bottom right of this photo because he felt it made for better composition and added depth and meaning, does that mean that the photo is no longer "straight"? After all, it is, essentially, a fabricated photo, corresponding not to what was seen but to what the photographer wants to show, and the story he wants to tell.

Also shows that composites have been possible for quite a while.

He also famously bleached the highlights to get the contrast that he wanted.

 

[MattKing]

Crewdson seems to be a movie maker using one photo to tell a story.

Similar to Jeff Wall - which means that his work can be powerful, evocative, thought provoking, beautiful and soul stirring.
Wall's "After Invisible Man by Ralph Ellison - the Prologue."

Or perhaps "Untangling"

Yes, these are re-enactments. They are also wall size - most likely Cibachromes.
Are they "straight"?