Is Paper Grade 4 extinct?

[haziz]

I have been using graded paper for the last two years and have seen the apparent demise of grade 4 in most of the papers I have used. First came the demise of Ilford Galerie's grade 4 then Oriental G4 (In addition to their switching emulsion and probably manufacturer of grades 2&3). I am currently experimenting with J&C's Nuance Expo paper (in G2 and G3)-beautiful paper in Ilford's cooltone developer BTW if a bit slow. JandC is now stocking it in only grades 2 and 3. Fortezo is a beautiful paper if you like warmtones (I tend to prefer cool tones), and I am unclear as to it's availability in Grade 4 (B&H seems to have some in G4). Omega Satter also does not see it fit to import Forte's cool tone graded paper.

I like graded for it's simplicity and for it's easier use with condenser and cold light heads. Some papers appear also mildly richer than their VC compatriots (Oriental's Seagull at least does in it's older emulsion compared to Oriental VC). I guess we will survive but it is sad to see the market shrink in front of us in this short time span. I came too late to the party to have witnessed grades 1 or 5 or 6.

I have a stash of some Galerie G4 and of Oriental old emulsion in G2-4, but these will eventually run out. Maybe we should convince Ilford to do a once yearly run of G4 (like they seem willing to do for ULF film) or possibly convince Omega Satter to import Bromofort. I really would like Ilford to survive so may lean in their direction and Galerie is a beautiful paper even if slightly warm compared to Oriental.

Sorry for rambling. I am not trying to promulgate another doom and gloom thread.

Thanks.

Sincerely,

Hany.

 

[David A. Goldfarb]

Nuance "normal" and "hard," which you are referring to as "grade 2" and "grade 3," actually used to be Cachet/Maco Expo RF grades 3 and 4, respectively. John explained that they changed the grading system, because it was felt that the old grade 2 was softer than the corresponding grades for other brands. So you might think of Nuance "hard" as something like grade 3-1/2 and maybe you can push the contrast up a bit more with development controls.

Alternately, you could use selenium toner or another intensifier for the occasional negative that requires grade 4.

 

[Lachlan Young]

Kentmere Bromide G4 is available from Freestyle in a variety of sizes.

Hope this helps,

Lachlan

 

[Andrey Donchev]

Forte still makes Bromofort FB in grade 4. Contact Gunter from Lotus View Camera if you need some!

Andy

 

[Petzi]

Maybe we should convince Ilford to do a once yearly run of G4 (like they seem willing to do for ULF film)

I think they can't sell a yearly run within a year. If they could they would do it.

The difference to ULF film is that the FP4 and HP5 is coated for LF anyway, and the only thing they have to do for ULF is cut it to the right sizes.

With the Galerie paper however, they'd have to coat some big rolls for a few enthusiasts who are going to buy a couple boxes of 8x10" and 12x16".

 

[nworth]

You are touching on one of my pet gripes - today's negatives too often require high contrast grades for printing. The higher contrast grades are a bit harder to use, and they do not seem to have the same quality of gradation as the middle grades. Traditionally, most fine papers were made only in grades 2 and 3, and the user adjusted his negative development to match their printing qualiities. The other grades were used in commercial and press applications where exposure and development could not be so well controlled. You can compensate by increasing the development time for your negatives. But today's films do not respond to development changes as benignly as the older films, and you may lose a bit of quality in the negative (but gain a bit in the print).

 

[Donald Miller]

I echo what others have said about having the camera negative match the paper rather than vice versa.

Nuance is wonderful when developed in the MAS Amidol formula.

 

[Steve Sherman]

Without getting into an enormous debate or explanation about Semi-Stand and Reduced Agitation development, the exact qualities you are looking for in higher contrast graded papers can be effected with the above development technique.

Another trick, though not nearly as effective is to use graded papers with a strong Blue light source, this will kick the contrast up just a bit. Likewise, using a strong Green light on graded papers will slightly diminish contrast. I use Rosco theatre gels, above the negative of coarse. A swing of about 1/3 grade with the same paper has been my experience. If you need the Rosco numbers, I can dig them out as my darkroom is packed away.

 

[dancqu]

Central Camera out of Chicago has Bergger
in grade 4. They may have some others.
Have you shopped them? Dan

 

[haziz]

Nuance "normal" and "hard," which you are referring to as "grade 2" and "grade 3," actually used to be Cachet/Maco Expo RF grades 3 and 4, respectively. John explained that they changed the grading system, because it was felt that the old grade 2 was softer than the corresponding grades for other brands. So you might think of Nuance "hard" as something like grade 3-1/2 and maybe you can push the contrast up a bit more with development controls.

The website refers to "normal" and "hard" but the two boxes that arrived came labelled G2 and G3. G2 is great, it appears about 1 stop slower compared to Oriental. G3 while it looks equally fine appears to be two to three stops slower still and the exposure times stretched to 6-7 minutes, at least with a somewhat dense negative, which makes it a challenge to use.

I believe J&C used to carry a "soft" grade (?G1) but not at the present time. While my initial post bemoaned the lack of G4 I do in fact resent the overall shrinking of the market, though I certainly understand supply and demand and do realize the vendors are not charities. One of the negatives I was printing this weekend was too contrasty for grade 2. I guess a box of "soft" graded paper would have been nice. I am not clear if Photokemika stopped making it or JandC is not importing it due to lack of demand. Maybe some Selectol soft or more likely Ilford Multigrade has to come out of the closet. JandC seems to be importing some Forte themselves, maybe they (or Freestyle or Omega Satter, the official US importer) should start importing Bromofort (which I have never used though I have used Fortezo and Forte Polygrade) but which apears to be still available in G1-4 at least in Europe. Most of my negatives do fall on G2-3 (more G2) but it would certainly be nice to have a cold tone paper available in grades G1-4.

Thanks.

Sincerely,

Hany.

 

[dancqu]

I like graded for it's simplicity and for it's easier use ...

I like graded for the high level of darkroom lighting it affords. Dan

 

[David A. Goldfarb]

Interesting that Nuance Normal and Hard are now coming as "2" and "3." I guess it's a moving target. I suspect that the new 3 is the old 4 and the new 2 is the old 3. I hope they come out with some Soft/"1" (which I've never seen at J&C), since I have a lot of negs targeted to the old Expo RF grade 2.

 

[Simon R Galley]

Dear All,

We had tail ends of Grade 4 parent rolls of GALERIE that had to be scrapped as they went out of an acceptable date to finish and ship ( please remember quality is everything to us )...we did have some discussion on a customer led purchase of a special manufacture.. but it fizzled out, the problem is guys we could make a small run but it is just too expensive...much higher waste, same QC reguired etc, etc would you be willing to pay twice the price of a box of grade 3 for a grade 4 ? I think not...the other issue is resellers just would not stock it...but as I have said before ILFORD GALERIE will remain in the range, its sales in grade 2 and 3 are acceptable and stable and it is a Rolls-Royce product ( as far as we are concerned )

Regards

Simon ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited

 

[donbga]

Dear All,

We had tail ends of Grade 4 parent rolls of GALERIE that had to be scrapped as they went out of an acceptable date to finish and ship ( please remember quality is everything to us )...we did have some discussion on a customer led purchase of a special manufacture.. but it fizzled out, the problem is guys we could make a small run but it is just too expensive...much higher waste, same QC reguired etc, etc would you be willing to pay twice the price of a box of grade 3 for a grade 4 ? I think not...the other issue is resellers just would not stock it...but as I have said before ILFORD GALERIE will remain in the range, its sales in grade 2 and 3 are acceptable and stable and it is a Rolls-Royce product ( as far as we are concerned )

Regards

Simon ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited

Perhaps the solution is to increase the contrast of a grade 3 paper to grade 4. Seems to me this can be done to some degree by using a more active paper developer.

 

[Peter Schrager]

pushing grade 2+3

Edwal Ultra Black will give you a definate 1/2 grade push with paper.
Peter

 

[Petzi]

Tetenal Dokumol is supposed to increase paper contrast by up to one grade. I used it a long time ago, but don't remember if it really was one grade...

 

[Jon Shiu]

I wish there were some grade 5 and grade 6 papers still available. I have been using some old Agfa Grade 6 that prints beautifully.

Freestyle has some Arista Classic Grade 4 paper left (made in the United Kingdom).

Jon

 

[lowellh]

This is exactly why, when our customers requested a low contrast developer, we made Extend plus Developer for film and paper.

 

[skillian]

Two other possibilities that haven't been mentioned here:

1. Try intensifying your negatives. I never felt that selenium toner worked very well for this purpose, but Formulary sells kits and I can attest that they do work. However, the density seems proportionate to the silver so it didn't help my shadows much. Recently, a friend of mine has been experimenting with an older formula that's in the Darkroom Cookbook and he says that he's picking up as much as 2 full grades and seeing strong density changes even in the shadows.

2. Develop your grade 3 prints in Amidol which is more active than nearly all other developers and develop the prints longer. I've used Nuance quite a bit and you can certainly pick up a full half grade by simply developing the print longer. I've developed as long as 4 minutes and it clearly makes a difference.

Someone else mentioned long exposure times with Nuance. The simple solution is to simply use a brighter bulb like you would for Azo. I use a 150 watt clear bulb and it works fine. My negatives are very dense (most were made for Azo) and my times are usually between 10 and 60 seconds.

 

[Bob Carnie]

Since when has Oriental G 4 gone off the market? this is news to me as one of my clients just purchased 3 boxes of 16x20 within the last 30 days.

 

[Alex Hawley]

Develop your grade 3 prints in Amidol which is more active than nearly all other developers and develop the prints longer. I've used Nuance quite a bit and you can certainly pick up a full half grade by simply developing the print longer. I've developed as long as 4 minutes and it clearly makes a difference.

I can substantiate that technique. Its just the same as expanding contrast on film. Reduce the paper exposure just a bit, then develop for an extended time.

I used some grade 4 Kentmere Bromide just recently and compared it to grade 3 Nuance. The Kentmere was clearly more contrasty, even more than I could attain with the Nuance and the extended development.

 

[Rob Skeoch]

Alex,

I've been using Gallerie #3, but this neg. needs just a bit more contrast and I can't get it. I've tried using MG FB Warm Tone but it's too contrasty and the MGFB is way too contrasty. I'm hoping to try some Kentmere Bromide 4 when it becomes available in Canada next month. In your experience is it in-between the two Ilford papers for contrast.
I'm printing 8x10 neg on a cold head.
-Rob

PS. How does the finish compare to the Gallerie? I know I should just order some but we can't get it yet.

 

[Alex Hawley]

I'm not sure I can answer your question accurately Rob. I'm contact printing my 8x10s for one thing. I did print a very similar neg (same subject) from a 4x5 FP4+ neg on my condensor enlarger. It worked well on Kodak Polymax Fine Art FB at grade 4 filtration. In my experience, Polymax was a little less contrasty that Ilford MGIV.

Have you tried a grade 3-1/2 filter? Or maybe split-filtering is the way to go?

Can you order from Freestyle here in the US? That's where I got the Kentmere from.

I think the finish on Kentmere is pretty similar to Gallerie from what I can remember.

 

[schlger]

Kentmere Bromide G4 is available from Freestyle in a variety of sizes.

Hope this helps,

Lachlan

Hello Lachlan,

as yuo are from Scotland, do you order Kentmere Bromide 4 from USA or do you have a source in Europe to buy it from?

thanks
Gerhard

 

[Lachlan Young]

Hello Lachlan,

as yuo are from Scotland, do you order Kentmere Bromide 4 from USA or do you have a source in Europe to buy it from?

thanks
Gerhard

Hi Gerhard,

I have not tried Kentmere Bromide Grade 4 as I generally have little need for a grade 4 paper, however, it seems that Grades 3&4 of Kentmere Bromide are only available in the US. You could contact Kentmere UK and see if they can help.

Good Luck,

Lachlan