Is now the time to sell our film cameras?

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Adrian Bacon

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I seem to be playing the devil's advocate this week. By way of explaining this, I'm at home, five days before I depart for Southeast Asia on one of my extended photo shoots, with no household chores to be done before I go (ours is an entirely Sagittarian environment, two humans and three cats shari the same astrological sign, admittedly in the latter case as far as we know as our felines don't have birth certificates so we go by the personalities and traits, most definitely December fur babies they are) and little to do but read, write, plan my next two months' travel adventures and daydream.

Now to return to the point...

A dear friend long involved in photography has in the past year moved fully into digital (Nikons) and mostly given up shooting film. He isn't especially pro or con one or the other but says he did so for convenience and ease of creating his images. According to him, while he "sort of" misses his black-and-white film work, his digi results are as good as anything he did before, shooting is easier, he enjoys what little post-processing he does, and he rejoices at having escaped the tyranny of the darkroom with its fixer smells, endlessly long print washing and time dedicated to fine-spotting his enlargements. In fact he says he misses absolutely none of that, except the frisson of not knowing what his results will be on the spot when he shoots an image. also the fun of shooting with is Leica iiig (which he still does, in a limited way).

He believes that the entire photo industry is now firmly poised on a great abyss - the time for mass (and massive) changes when the masses of once-dedicated film shooters give up on analog and defect to the big D. Firmly convinced that this is about to happen, he insists that NOW is the time for us to offload our film cameras while we can still get quite decent prices for them.

I tend to both agree and disagree (another hybrid Sagittarian trait). Certainly film prices here in Australia are so ridiculously high as to put off most older photographers who traditionally keep to a sensible budget but now find the costs of film and darkroom supplies so inflated as to be off-putting. Many of my friends (who are in their 60s and 70s and on reduced incomes but still share my love of older cameras and traditional darkrooms) agree with this sad summing up. If anything destroys the future of film shooting here in the Antipodes, it will be the price of film.

I got around this to some extent by hoarding in the late 2009 but am now almost out of chemistry and 35mm films (my remaining stocks of refrigerated 120 films would put your average camera shop circa 2005 to shame). Having recently relocated from Tasmania to Melbourne, last week I ventured into my favorite retail photo center to buy fresh developer and fixer and other odd bits of darkroom chemistry, and all but lost bowel control in shock when I realized the high prices for anything.

Fortunately I do my own D&P, as the same retailer wants the price of a kidney for processing one roll of slide film and two fingers from one's hand for color negative. And New Zealand prices it seems are up to 50% higher. Ooch!

So my query. Do you believe that NOW is the time to sell our stores of unused cameras? Will prices for secondhand gear crash to rock-bottom in the near future? With environmental destruction, climate change and all the other awfuls the media tells us are waiting at the end of the street, will film become as rare (and as expensive as) dinosaurs' teeth in the not-too-distant distance?

in 2012 I had >50-60 cameras but I'm now down to a more sensible but still oversupply of <20.

My Nikkormats and Nikkor lenses are worth only cents on the dollar and prices have not improved since 2010. My Contax G equipment would sell at the same prices or a little better as in 2012. Rolleiflex (oddly, not Rolleicords, which I consider as as good as the 'flexes) prices in Oz have skyrocketed and some Ebay sellers want megabucks for well-worn 1950s Automats with dents and missing bits. German 6x6 folders still command reasonable prices on the same auction site.

I've noted that, as for most overpriced things on Ebay, not much seems to sell. Now and then a pigeon bits the poison hook but on the auction saes are stagnant.

Bearing in mind what I said about Satan's Advocacy, what are your thoughts about all this?

No. The bulk of the current film resurgence (if you want to call it that) is actually from the younger generation getting into film for the first time. The old timers very well may want to unload their film stuff, but I'd like to point out that a good digital camera that can compete with what they currently have (features, functionality, etc) is not cheap. You can shoot an awful lot of film for what you'd pay for a modern digital camera. The film market isn't what it once was and never will be, however, it is growing back from what bottom it first experienced when digital first came on the scene. If anything, the digital camera market is getting eaten by the camera phone and is about to crash into the abyss.
 

Andrew O'Neill

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Andrew,
Does your wife know this!??
:whistling:
And in response to goamules, I'd say:
While you were gone, prices cratered (around 2005 I would say), stayed low for a long time, and have been rising steadily recently.

She does! She's always been very supportive. She did ask me if this recent purchase of $179 was for film and to let her know when i make such purchases in future so she can prepare herself for the shock. I've been forgetting to do so for almost 30 years! LoL
 

jamesaz

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@ozmoose First off, when you were born has absolutely nothing to do with your, your partner's or your cats' personalities. Astrology's as make believe as religion.
Right, with that out the way, my answer to your topic is I will give up using my film camera and be forced to learn to shoot digitally when, and only when, film becomes unavailable.
You do know that the moon moves the tides, don't you? So it follows logically that there would be some sort of cosmic effect to celestial placement. Of course, understanding and quantifying that effect is another thing altogether.
There will always be a market of some kind for film and chemical photography. New materials don't replace older ones, at least in the arts. People still make pottery from clay, even with the ubiquity of plastic bowls.
 

goamules

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To those that took my statement "first time back to APUG in years" to mean I haven't been shooting film or buying/selling cameras, that's not the case. Film cameras of all types are NOT trending upward the past 6-7 years, they are trending very obviously downward. Maybe not the bottom of the rung junk like K-1000s and Canon AE-1s, and Soviet Feds. Those were $25 cameras on eBay in 2011. I didn't look to see what they are now, but tried to sell a friends collecton of Minolta gear (early all metal bodies and good lenses) a few months ago. On forums, Facebook groups, and on ebay, they were impossible to sell. I finally listed 3-4 bodies in a lot for $50 and got them sold. The lenses just sat there. Same with most large format, the bread and butter of my sales since 2007....stagnant.

But let's talk about the good stuff. Pro equipment, rangefinders and high end SLRs. I just looked at another "gold standard" lens, the Canon 50/1.8 in LTM. In 2005 they were selling for $200. Just looked, there are dozens selling for an average of $50 now on Ebay. How about the Leica Elmar? down. The Angenieux .95 that was easily a $1000 lens in C-mount? Today, $400. Nikon rangfinder bodies, way down. Contax, way down, Leica, Canon, Nicca, way down. The ONLY thing "trending up" is the bottom feeder cameras I mentioned above. Things like the K-1000. Because when a Millennial gets a minimum wage increase from $7/hr to $12/hr, they are willing to pay $150 for a camera instead of the $30 limit of a few years ago. But the supply-demand equation will win: there are millions more old cameras out there then people wanting to try them, or to "look cool" for their friends for a while. Do NOT think of old cameras as an investment. Trust me, I have shelves of them, and a safe full of lenses, the good stuff. But one day it will be very hard to get rid of.
 

Paul Manuell

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You do know that the moon moves the tides, don't you? So it follows logically that there would be some sort of cosmic effect to celestial placement. Of course, understanding and quantifying that effect is another thing altogether.
There will always be a market of some kind for film and chemical photography. New materials don't replace older ones, at least in the arts. People still make pottery from clay, even with the ubiquity of plastic bowls.
Yes, I'm fully aware that the Moon causes tides, due to gravitational pull. That and the placement of other celestial bodies, though, at anyone's time of birth has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on their personalities.
 

chris77

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Yes, I'm fully aware that the Moon causes tides, due to gravitational pull. That and the placement of other celestial bodies, though, at anyone's time of birth has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on their personalities.
you are very wrong, but ignorant of the fact.
sideral astrology (like it is practised since thousands of years) started as a empiric calendar. characters are not directly influenced, its more of a language using sync movements as key to understanding relations.
micro macro cosmos.
denial of it only goes to show that you havent gotten in contact with the science.
kind regards
chris
 

Paul Manuell

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you are very wrong, but ignorant of the fact.
sideral astrology (like it is practised since thousands of years) started as a empiric calendar. characters are not directly influenced, its more of a language using sync movements as key to understanding relations.
micro macro cosmos.
denial of it only goes to show that you havent gotten in contact with the science.
kind regards
chris
So EVERY person born under a given astrological sign has the same personality traits as each other, do they? And nobody of any other astrological sign bears those same traits at all? But anyway, you carry on believing in your fairy tales if it makes you happy.
 

MattKing

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Hmm, an argument about astrology.
You can find everything on Photrio.:surprised:
 

DonJ

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I'm learning so much from this thread:
  • My 42-year-old, fully functional Canon AE-1 is a "bottom of the rung junk camera"
  • My disbelief in astrology is caused by a failure to "get in contact with science"
  • Film camera prices are going up, except when they're going down
  • Digital photography strips you of the ability to focus and select aperture/shutter speed (so what do the "M" settings do?)
  • Only film photography requires thought and skill
Thanks!
 

Paul Manuell

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I'm learning so much from this thread:
  • My 42-year-old, fully functional Canon AE-1 is a "bottom of the rung junk camera"
  • My disbelief in astrology is caused by a failure to "get in contact with science"
  • Film camera prices are going up , except when they're going down
  • Digital photography strips you of the ability to focus and select aperture/shutter speed (so what do the "M" settings do?)
  • Only film photography requires thought and skill
Thanks!
Tell me about it - I'd love a Pentax 67II, but the price of them now is ridiculous. Will be staying with my 645NII for the foreseeable future (not that there's anything wrong with that).
 

chris77

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So EVERY person born under a given astrological sign has the same personality traits as each other, do they? And nobody of any other astrological sign bears those same traits at all? But anyway, you carry on believing in your fairy tales if it makes you happy.
no. a birthchart is a complex and very individual map.
more than 15 contributing factors to consider and there relation to each other.
no software is able to do it yet. its a complicated task to get it right.
'astrology' as practiced by newspapers etc is almost complete nonsense anf harmful to the damaged reputation of astrology.
the analysis of a birthchart is an art on its own.
thats all that i will say about it on a photo forum..
cheers,
chris
 

Paul Manuell

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no. a birthchart is a complex and very individual map.
more than 15 contributing factors to consider and there relation to each other.
no software is able to do it yet. its a complicated task to get it right.
'astrology' as practiced by newspapers etc is almost complete nonsense anf harmful to the damaged reputation of astrology.
the analysis of a birthchart is an art on its own.
thats all that i will say about it on a photo forum..
cheers,
chris
Any such astrological birthchart, no matter how complex, is still only a fictional chart with no factual basis. How can it be anything other? It can't; the idea that there are factors based on celestial objects and their relative positions on one's date of birth that pre-determine one's personality is ridiculous. I
Anyway, yes, photography forum - film cameras...
 

choiliefan

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Sell them to KEH or Roberts.
Lose your shirt and move on to digital.
What have you got to lose?
 

richyd

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"A dear friend long involved in photography has in the past year moved fully into digital (Nikons) and mostly given up shooting film. .........
He believes that the entire photo industry is now firmly poised on a great abyss - the time for mass (and massive) changes when the masses of once-dedicated film shooters give up on analog and defect to the big D."


Confirmation bias ?
 
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I'm selling at the moment ~ Vintage Photography Kits. I clean up and refurbish doubles in my collection, package with instructions and a roll of film for sale at local craft fairs. Buyers are of the younger generation who have never used film before. There is a still strong interest in film, I'm not sure if it going to lead to a similar resurgence like the return to vinyl that we have seen but at least the interest is there. I think part of the appeal is the way different mediums work, my art student daughter uses film (Pentax K1000), digital for still and video (Canon 200D), has shot moving image in 16mm and has a KMZ Quartz for Super 8. At the moment she is awaiting delivery of her latest purchase, Polaroid One Step.
 

jamesaz

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Yes, I'm fully aware that the Moon causes tides, due to gravitational pull. That and the placement of other celestial bodies, though, at anyone's time of birth has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on their personalities.
I never said it did, I just stipulated that the possibility may exist. The existence of possibilities and the effort to manifest them is kind of the essence of creativity, is it not?
The meaningful part of my post was about materials to make art, specifically for chemical photography.
 

Ste_S

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To those that took my statement "first time back to APUG in years" to mean I haven't been shooting film or buying/selling cameras, that's not the case. Film cameras of all types are NOT trending upward the past 6-7 years, they are trending very obviously downward. Maybe not the bottom of the rung junk like K-1000s and Canon AE-1s, and Soviet Feds. Those were $25 cameras on eBay in 2011. I didn't look to see what they are now, but tried to sell a friends collecton of Minolta gear (early all metal bodies and good lenses) a few months ago. On forums, Facebook groups, and on ebay, they were impossible to sell. I finally listed 3-4 bodies in a lot for $50 and got them sold. The lenses just sat there. Same with most large format, the bread and butter of my sales since 2007....stagnant.

But let's talk about the good stuff. Pro equipment, rangefinders and high end SLRs. I just looked at another "gold standard" lens, the Canon 50/1.8 in LTM. In 2005 they were selling for $200. Just looked, there are dozens selling for an average of $50 now on Ebay. How about the Leica Elmar? down. The Angenieux .95 that was easily a $1000 lens in C-mount? Today, $400. Nikon rangfinder bodies, way down. Contax, way down, Leica, Canon, Nicca, way down. The ONLY thing "trending up" is the bottom feeder cameras I mentioned above. Things like the K-1000. Because when a Millennial gets a minimum wage increase from $7/hr to $12/hr, they are willing to pay $150 for a camera instead of the $30 limit of a few years ago. But the supply-demand equation will win: there are millions more old cameras out there then people wanting to try them, or to "look cool" for their friends for a while. Do NOT think of old cameras as an investment. Trust me, I have shelves of them, and a safe full of lenses, the good stuff. But one day it will be very hard to get rid of.

It looks as though you're just looking at a small sub set of the market. Premium 35mm compacts have sky rocketed in price over the last 6-7 years - Contax T3's are regularly going for £1k+ for example. Some medium format stuff from Mamiya, Fuji and Pentax are also trending up rather than trending down.

What's fashionable tends to have a lot to do with it.
 

FujiLove

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I just looked at another "gold standard" lens, the Canon 50/1.8 in LTM. In 2005 they were selling for $200. Just looked, there are dozens selling for an average of $50 now on Ebay

Really? The only ones I could find for that price on eBay this morning were full of fungus and/or badly damaged. The decent ones were still in the $200 range.
 

Paul Manuell

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There is no po
I never said it did, I just stipulated that the possibility may exist. The existence of possibilities and the effort to manifest them is kind of the essence of creativity, is it not?
The meaningful part of my post was about materials to make art, specifically for chemical photography.
Just to clear things up for you, there is NO possibility that the position of celestial bodies at your time of birth has any bearing whatsoever on your personality. Now then, back to making art :smile:
 

choiliefan

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One of the great mysteries man has struggled with for ages is finally settled.
 

MattKing

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