is LF really complicated?

Toffle · Feb 12, 2011

BrianShaw said:
Gee, maybe you guys are right. Now that you list them, that's a lot of ways to screw up. And I'll bet one or two are still missing.

How about this one: Being under the dark cloth and not noticing someone standing in front of the lens obscuring the beautiful landscape being photographed.

Or this one: dust got on the film

I'm thinking of quitting LF and giving all of my equipment away.

Ok ok, I'll take it, but bear in mind that extensive as the list is, most of those problems can be avoidied through some learned discipline in your procedure. I'd suggest practicing a little with paper negatives, which offer quick feedback on what you are doing right or wrong, and are a fraction of the cost of film. (especially colour film... Yikes)

But really, if you are giving your stuff away...

BrianShaw · Feb 12, 2011

I recognized several, maybe even many, of those items from when I learned to shoot LF. I agree that learning AND MAINTAINING the discipline is the secret. Other secret is not trying to do something with LF when it is not suited to the task.

Let me say it this way: If I can learn to be a competent LF photographer, even a monkey could with sufficient practice!

Maybe I'll keep my gear afterall.

Sirius Glass · Feb 12, 2011

BrianShaw said:
Gee, maybe you guys are right. Now that you list them, that's a lot of ways to screw up. And I'll bet one or two are still missing.

How about this one: Being under the dark cloth and not noticing someone standing in front of the lens obscuring the beautiful landscape being photographed.

Or this one: dust got on the film

I'm thinking of quitting LF and giving all of my equipment away.

I will take the LF equipment and pick it up ==> no packing and no shipping.

BrianShaw · Feb 12, 2011

P.S. If not a monkey, then certainly an ape.

tim k · Feb 12, 2011

LF is "pure" photography. A wooden box, an accordion, a piece of glass and a sheet of film. The rest is up to you.

I remember the first time I put my 4x5 on a tripod. It just sat there, no batteries, bells or whistles. It made me think about what I was doing. That was a good thing.

removed account4 · Feb 12, 2011

i have large format box cameras
they are simpler than a point and shoot 35mm camera ..
large format can be as simple or as difficult as you want to make it ..

35mm or submini can be complicated, if you want them to be ...

2F/2F · Feb 12, 2011

I have done most of the dark slide violations for sure.......It does pay to have nice holders with working locks.

stradibarrius · Feb 13, 2011

Wow...it sounds like it's getting more complicated by the second!!!!
Maybe I don't want to do this?

Ian Grant · Feb 13, 2011

stradibarrius said:
Wow...it sounds like it's getting more complicated by the second!!!!
Maybe I don't want to do this?

One of my nieces began using my Wista 45DX and with a few minutes had a good grasp of how to use it, and found it remarkably easy even the movements etc..

LF is actually simpler, there's no messing around deciding what function/program/mode etc to set, and it's more about getting into a routine after setting up & focussing, stopping down, closing the shutter etc

It's a lot of fun as well

Ian

TheFlyingCamera · Feb 13, 2011

Barry-

really, the best thing to do is to just go out with someone who already shoots large format and watch them work. Get a chance to handle the camera and feel how it operates for yourself. There certainly is an intimidation factor when confronting a large format camera for the first time, because it has no obvious feedback mechanisms. There's no meter, there's no distance scale to confirm your focus, and no interlocks to prevent you from making any of dozens of mistakes. But get over those fears, and you'll learn to love working with it - there's this whole zen thing about being under the darkcloth, completely removed from the world around you except for this glowing bright screen in front of you. If you can learn to cajole music from a block of wood and transform it into a beautiful violin with just your hands and a few simple tools, you can easily master operating a large format camera. It's the difference between a CNC lathe and a hand-chisel. Working with the hand chisel is slower and more methodical than the CNC lathe, but would you want to use a violin made by a milling machine?

stradibarrius · Feb 13, 2011

One big advantage I see is not having to shoot an entire roll when you only want to shoot 5 or 6 shots. Also being able to process each shot individually. The dark slide safty on my RB has save me from shooting with the slide still in several times I must admit.

stradibarrius · Feb 13, 2011

sly said:
I'm surprised no one has suggested the LF forum. It has a different tone than APUG, but is a source I turn to as well. http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/index.php

One of the first things I read on the LF site when I was just getting started was this wonderful list of all the things you can do wrong. I haven't done them all yet.

What NOT to do in large format ?
by Q.-Tuan Luong for the Large Format Page

There are more ways to ruin a photograph than you would think. All these potentially fatal mistakes are specific to large format, in the sense that most of them are impossible, or quite rare with 35mm and MF cameras. Here are some of them, and how to avoid making the mistake. Additional suggestions welcome.

Mistakes make while taking the photograph
lens not stopped down
shutter speed not adjusted
dark slide removed before closing the lens
holder with exposed film used
holder with no film used
camera fired with no film holder inside
dark slide not removed before the exposure
dark slide put back the wrong side
dark slide not put back
rear dark slide pulled out
vignetting due to internal blocking
vignetting due to excessive movements
vignetting due to compendium shade/filters
lack of depth of field
poor focussing
camera controls unlocked
camera shaken by the wind
subject shaken by the wind
reciprocity failure miscompensated
filter factor not taken into account
bellows factor not taken into account
wrong f-stop scale (with convertibles or Nikkor telephoto lenses)
change in light/subject not taken into account
cable release / shade showing in picture
mysterious double image with long exposure
Pre and post exposure mistakes
film loaded backwards
film misloaded
dusk got on the film
forgot at home tripod/holders/essential camera part
darkslide accidentaly opened
wrong developpment (ie color instead of B&W, or +1 instead of -1) applied to the film
flipping the light on before closing film boxes
Defective equipment
light leaks in camera or bellows
light leaks in holders
ground glass mis-alignment
film plane mis-aligned in holders
erratic shutter

One of the things I enloy so much about APUG is the community here. When I ask for advice, I know that the answers I receive will be good because I have been here long enough to know who has great ideas.
I have join the LF forum but I will see if I enjoy that group as much as this one?

stradibarrius · Feb 13, 2011

I agree, and thank you. I am actually the type that just jumps in and tries my hand at whatever. I taught myself to make classical guitars and violins by reading books and making sawdust.
I'm not really worried, I'll shoot some film see what mistakes I make and figure out how to correct them by reading and asking questions. Take some more shots and repeat the process. IMO doing is the best way to learn. Ask some basic questions to get yourself off the ground and then do something. If it's wrong it's not the end of the world...just try again. Read some more, ask some more questions and continue the learning process. Hopefully your results get better with time.

David A. Goldfarb · Feb 13, 2011

I haven't read this whole thread, but in case it hasn't been mentioned, one of the important things to remember is that most of the history of photography to date, measured in years, has been the history of large format photography, and all kinds of people with all kinds of talents and aptitudes have practiced it.

Bellows factor is more important in large format than in smaller formats, because you are more likely to be in the range where it is relevant when you are using a larger format (any time the magnification ratio is 1:10 or greater, image size:subject size). If you're shooting 4x5" or larger, you basically are thinking about bellows factor any time you're indoors (aside from spaces like indoor sports arenas) or shooting anything at around portrait distance or closer, but it's not that hard to determine.

It is possible to calculate tilt and swing angles based on measurements, but you can also look at the ground glass and do it visually, and if you are in the studio, you can use a camera with scales and asymmetric movements like a Sinar P that make it even easier, once you know how they work.

Weegee largely simplified the process even further for most of his photojournalistic shooting situations by always using the same flashbulb, same film, and memorizing how to judge two shooting distances, so that his images would always be sharp and correctly exposed, since the use of flash made it possible to determine exposure on the basis of the subject distance. That doesn't mean he never used other techniques or never encountered other situations, and indeed he loved all kinds of trick photography with unusual techniques, but for 90% of covering the news, that flashbulb, film, two distances, one shutter speed and two apertures was enough.

Sirius Glass · Feb 13, 2011

sly said:
I'm surprised no one has suggested the LF forum. It has a different tone than APUG, but is a source I turn to as well. http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/index.php

One of the first things I read on the LF site when I was just getting started was this wonderful list of all the things you can do wrong. I haven't done them all yet.

What NOT to do in large format ?
by Q.-Tuan Luong for the Large Format Page

There are more ways to ruin a photograph than you would think. All these potentially fatal mistakes are specific to large format, in the sense that most of them are impossible, or quite rare with 35mm and MF cameras. Here are some of them, and how to avoid making the mistake. Additional suggestions welcome.

Mistakes make while taking the photograph
lens not stopped down
shutter speed not adjusted
dark slide removed before closing the lens
holder with exposed film used
holder with no film used
camera fired with no film holder inside
dark slide not removed before the exposure
dark slide put back the wrong side
dark slide not put back
rear dark slide pulled out
vignetting due to internal blocking
vignetting due to excessive movements
vignetting due to compendium shade/filters
lack of depth of field
poor focussing
camera controls unlocked
camera shaken by the wind
subject shaken by the wind
reciprocity failure miscompensated
filter factor not taken into account
bellows factor not taken into account
wrong f-stop scale (with convertibles or Nikkor telephoto lenses)
change in light/subject not taken into account
cable release / shade showing in picture
mysterious double image with long exposure
Pre and post exposure mistakes
film loaded backwards
film misloaded
dusk got on the film
forgot at home tripod/holders/essential camera part
darkslide accidentaly opened
wrong developpment (ie color instead of B&W, or +1 instead of -1) applied to the film
flipping the light on before closing film boxes
Defective equipment
light leaks in camera or bellows
light leaks in holders
ground glass mis-alignment
film plane mis-aligned in holders
erratic shutter

Also add:
putting film in the holder with the emulsion side down instead of up
not seating the film properly in the holder

paul_c5x4 · Feb 13, 2011

Loading film into the holders and forgeting to flip the darkslides to "white side out"

All these little problems can be avoided by methodical working. The biggest problem I have is when setting up the camera - Under the darkcloth, carefully framing and focusing on the image, then becoming aware of a dozen or so pairs of feet around the tripod.

BrianShaw · Feb 13, 2011

Nomenclature differences can also be a bit of a challenge. One budding LF photographer I met was concerned about incompatabily isses when loading 5x4 film into a 4x5 film holder

Ole · Feb 13, 2011

Yes - but try loading 13x18cm film into a 5x7" holder. Or 5x7" film in a 13x18cm holder. The big danger with this is than it CAN work - if the metric film is on the small side and the 5x7" film on the large side, still within production tolerances.

and then suddenly one day you hear the sound of a film falling out of the holder and landing in the bellows, or you find that the film has bowed out so much you can't re-insert the dark slide.

Sirius Glass · Feb 13, 2011

BrianShaw said:
Nomenclature differences can also be a bit of a challenge. One budding LF photographer I met was concerned about incompatabily isses when loading 5x4 film into a 4x5 film holder

This requires rotating the film 90º while maintaining the film plane.

lxdude · Feb 13, 2011

stradibarrius said:
Wow...it sounds like it's getting more complicated by the second!!!!
Maybe I don't want to do this?

Don't forget about having to stand on your head to view the image on the ground glass!

Sirius Glass · Feb 13, 2011

lxdude said:
Don't forget about having to stand on your head to view the image on the ground glass!

Crap! I thought that I put on the lens upside down!

stradibarrius · Feb 13, 2011

What if I pass out from the blood running to my head?
Boy this thread has got a lot more mileage than I ever expected!!

MattKing · Feb 13, 2011

LF is less complicated than trying to use a Mamiya 645 camera with a waist-level finder for portraits.

Try it, you will see .

lxdude · Feb 15, 2011

Sirius Glass said:
Crap! I thought that I put on the lens upside down!

No, when that happens just turn over the ground glass!

Keith Tapscott. · Feb 15, 2011

stradibarrius said:
is LF a lot more difficult than shooting MF? As much as I love photography I don't like or care for the extreme details like formulas and ratios.

It's more involved with setting up etc, but I wouldn't say more difficult. I recently received my Walker Titan 4x5 XL and used it for the first time a few weeks ago under a watchful eye of another LF user.
Apart from some minor errors to begin with, I think I am going to enjoy using the Camera.
I didn't use any movements except for one exposure and the contact-sheets look sharp, but I haven't got a 4x5 enlarger yet.

is LF really complicated?

Toffle

BrianShaw

Sirius Glass

BrianShaw

tim k

removed account4

2F/2F

stradibarrius

Ian Grant

TheFlyingCamera

Membership Council

stradibarrius

stradibarrius

stradibarrius

David A. Goldfarb

Moderator

Sirius Glass

paul_c5x4

BrianShaw

Ole

Moderator

Sirius Glass

lxdude

Sirius Glass

stradibarrius

MattKing

Moderator

lxdude

Keith Tapscott.

is LF really complicated?

Membership Council

Moderator

Moderator

Moderator

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency