is LF really complicated?

olwick · Feb 11, 2011

Mainecoonmaniac said:
I think for some applications 4x5 is excellent. It slows you down so it makes one see differently. I like cook so I see it like cooking from scratch with a stove verses microwaving a tv dinner. One is more an art and the other is just do what is necessary to get the job done to eat.

Outstanding analogy!

stradibarrius · Feb 11, 2011

Wow, thanks for all of the encouragement!!! The APUG community is by FAR the best forum I have ever been a member of. My RB67 doesn't have any gizmos or batteries and it has bellows but I have never figured any factors for that. I keep thinking I should understand it more but it never seems to matter really.
I love the slower approach and hate digital things trying to out think me all the time.
I have basically worked out the trade and hope to have the whole kit next week sometime.
I understand exposure and metering. That is the same for any format as someone pointed out. I was just afraid that I would need a slide rule to calculate the angle of the dangle so that the square of the hypotenuse was equivalent to the reciprocal of the lens diagonal.
I want understand what I am doing but I do not want to be paralyzed by a bunch of calculations I have to make before each shot.

I have patience...remember I make violins the way Stradivarius did 300 years ago. all by hand. No CNC machines, just chisels and knives and scrapers.

Steve Smith · Feb 11, 2011

If you are mainly thinking of photographing your violins then your bellows factor will probably not be more than the focal length of the lens. If it was equal to the focal length, you would be projecting an image onto the film which was the same size as the subject. I suppose some detail shots could be at 1:1 though.

If this is as large as you will go then the most compensation you will need is two stops.

For less than this, you can just scale back from the two stops a bit and be close enough if you err on the side of more rather than less.

There is an Excel Spreadsheet here: http://www.largeformatphotography.info/Bell_Ext.xls which shows exposure compensation relative to focal length and bellows extension.

Steve.

goldenimage · Feb 11, 2011

there is a learning curve as with anything else, i have been shooting LF for about 5 years, i l ove it, it still exciting to me everytime i take the camera out for a spin, the questions you get from other people sometimes are hilarious. for example i was shooting at a national park a while back with my 8x10, a guy walked up to me and asked,,"hey thats one of those old black and white cameras aint it?"

Mainecoonmaniac · Feb 11, 2011

Simple calculator for bellows

stradibarrius said:
is LF a lot more difficult than shooting MF? As much as I love photography I don't like or care for the extreme details like formulas and ratios.

Ralph Lambrecht a regular poster here on APUG has been generous enough to post excerpts from his book "Way Beond Monochrome". On one of his posting on his website for his book is a template page that has a bellows extension calculator on page 15 on the PDF download. The calculator has 2 parts. The first part is a chip that you but in front of your subject and the other is a ruler which you use to measure the size of that chip on the ground glass. From the measurement, you can calculate how much to compensate in exposure. It's an ingenious but simple way of calculating bellows extension. I've used something similar for years using a 4x5 for close up tabletop photography. Here's the link to the PDF.
http://waybeyondmonochrome.com/WBM2/Library_files/TemplatesEd2.pdf

Don't let any of the complications keep you from shooting LF.

stradibarrius · Feb 11, 2011

I got a copy of Ralph's book last week! I will have to look for it. Thanks!
I am starting to get excited!

Wayne · Feb 11, 2011

Mainecoonmaniac said:
Ralph Lambrecht a regular poster here on APUG has been generous enough to post excerpts from his book "Way Beond Monochrome". On one of his posting on his website for his book is a template page that has a bellows extension calculator on page 15 on the PDF download. The calculator has 2 parts. The first part is a chip that you but in front of your subject and the other is a ruler which you use to measure the size of that chip on the ground glass. From the measurement, you can calculate how much to compensate in exposure. It's an ingenious but simple way of calculating bellows extension. I've used something similar for years using a 4x5 for close up tabletop photography. Here's the link to the PDF.
http://waybeyondmonochrome.com/WBM2/Library_files/TemplatesEd2.pdf

Don't let any of the complications keep you from shooting LF.

I've always thought that method made things waaaay more complicated than they need be. Why carry two things when you only need one (tape or ruler) or none (a marked camera bed, or your eyeball) But to each his own, maybe its quite simple in practice, like anything else.

Jon Harwood · Feb 11, 2011

stradibarrius said:
is LF a lot more difficult than shooting MF? As much as I love photography I don't like or care for the extreme details like formulas and ratios.

The complexity isn't terrible in ways it is the simplest form but it is much different from hand held photography as the camera is nearly always stationary on a tripod and you are limited by how much film you can carry and the length of time you are willing to spend processing sheet film. Color film and processing are expensive for 4x5 and rediculously expensive for8x10. When you make a good negative there is nothing that can equal the quality. I shoot small format and when I find a scene that is a "slam dunk" I return with the large camera.

Mainecoonmaniac · Feb 11, 2011

I remembered when I got excited about 4x5

stradibarrius said:
I got a copy of Ralph's book last week! I will have to look for it. Thanks!
I am starting to get excited!

You remind me when I was 25 years younger and got excited about 4x5. Glad you got Ralph's book. I'm going to get a copy too. Keep up the excitement and shoot 4x5!

Paul Sorensen · Feb 11, 2011

stradibarrius said:
My RB67 doesn't have any gizmos or batteries and it has bellows but I have never figured any factors for that. I keep thinking I should understand it more but it never seems to matter really.

You can take a similar approach with 4X5. The RB67 actually has the same exact issue with bellows adjustment as does large format. One nice thing is that they have guides printed right on the camera (although I find them hard to read) but in most cases outside of pretty significant closeups, it will make no difference.

Glad you are jumping in. I have recently jumped back in after a several year absence, I am so glad that I did.

removed account4 · Feb 11, 2011

barry

the only really hard part about large format is
putting the film in the film holders so the emulsion side
is up ...
you can find some bellows factor info on jason brunner's website
look for the video called " bellows factor with bacon "

http://www.jasonbrunner.com/videos.html

have fun !
john

k_jupiter · Feb 12, 2011

stradibarrius said:
I have patience...remember I make violins the way Stradivarius did 300 years ago. all by hand. No CNC machines, just chisels and knives and scrapers.

And I make photographs just like Edward Weston did 60 years ago. Just like him.

*L*

tim in san jose

Steve Smith · Feb 12, 2011

I went up into the attic and found a Stradivarius and a Rembrandt. Unfortunately Stradivarius was a terrible painter and Rembrandt made lousy violins.

- Tommy Cooper.

Steve.

Brian C. Miller · Feb 12, 2011

stradibarrius said:
is LF a lot more difficult than shooting MF? As much as I love photography I don't like or care for the extreme details like formulas and ratios.

Well, actually, large format is all about extreme details. Extreme details on film, that is.

You don't have to learn one formula to use the camera. Nothing. The only heavy lifting is picking up the camera, but my Pentax 6x7 weighs just as much as my view camera.

I am still using my first LF camera, a Graflex Super Graphic. The original Wollensak Optar lens is excellent, and is quite sharp. The downside to using LF is having to load the film sheet by sheet. But what the hey, if I wanted to photograph something quickly I'd use my Pentax 645.

Using swings, tilts, and shift can be learned soley by looking at the ground glass. If you want immediate feedback, you can get Fuji instant film. Can I hand-hold the camera? Yes, it's clumsy compared to my 645, but it isn't difficult.

Is it worth it? Oh, yeah, is it ever worth it!

stillsilver · Feb 12, 2011

Well there is the calculating for DOF.

Mike

stillsilver · Feb 12, 2011

Not to hijack the thread, but welcome to APUG Brian.

Mike

JBrunner · Feb 12, 2011

Large format is really simple, really. It is also brutally unforgiving of the smallest slight.

johnnywalker · Feb 12, 2011

A bit off-topic, but one way of measuring the compensation needed for bellows extension involves measuring from the film plane to the "lens". What part of the lens? Front, middle, shutter, back, other?

RPippin · Feb 12, 2011

"Is large format really complicated?" No. Beware of those who say otherwise.

JBrunner · Feb 12, 2011

johnnywalker said:
A bit off-topic, but one way of measuring the compensation needed for bellows extension involves measuring from the film plane to the "lens". What part of the lens? Front, middle, shutter, back, other?

The measurement should be from the nodal point of the lens, usually the plane of the aperture.

johnnywalker · Feb 12, 2011

Thanks Jason.

BrianShaw · Feb 12, 2011

RPippin said:
"Is large format really complicated?" No. Beware of those who say otherwise.

That's what I was going to say.

I actually find LF to be easier than MF unless there is a rush involved... and then I find 35mm to be easiest.

sly · Feb 12, 2011

I'm surprised no one has suggested the LF forum. It has a different tone than APUG, but is a source I turn to as well. http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/index.php

One of the first things I read on the LF site when I was just getting started was this wonderful list of all the things you can do wrong. I haven't done them all yet.

What NOT to do in large format ?
by Q.-Tuan Luong for the Large Format Page

There are more ways to ruin a photograph than you would think. All these potentially fatal mistakes are specific to large format, in the sense that most of them are impossible, or quite rare with 35mm and MF cameras. Here are some of them, and how to avoid making the mistake. Additional suggestions welcome.

Mistakes make while taking the photograph
lens not stopped down
shutter speed not adjusted
dark slide removed before closing the lens
holder with exposed film used
holder with no film used
camera fired with no film holder inside
dark slide not removed before the exposure
dark slide put back the wrong side
dark slide not put back
rear dark slide pulled out
vignetting due to internal blocking
vignetting due to excessive movements
vignetting due to compendium shade/filters
lack of depth of field
poor focussing
camera controls unlocked
camera shaken by the wind
subject shaken by the wind
reciprocity failure miscompensated
filter factor not taken into account
bellows factor not taken into account
wrong f-stop scale (with convertibles or Nikkor telephoto lenses)
change in light/subject not taken into account
cable release / shade showing in picture
mysterious double image with long exposure
Pre and post exposure mistakes
film loaded backwards
film misloaded
dusk got on the film
forgot at home tripod/holders/essential camera part
darkslide accidentaly opened
wrong developpment (ie color instead of B&W, or +1 instead of -1) applied to the film
flipping the light on before closing film boxes
Defective equipment
light leaks in camera or bellows
light leaks in holders
ground glass mis-alignment
film plane mis-aligned in holders
erratic shutter

Sirius Glass · Feb 12, 2011

sly said:
I'm surprised no one has suggested the LF forum. It has a different tone than APUG, but is a source I turn to as well. http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/index.php

One of the first things I read on the LF site when I was just getting started was this wonderful list of all the things you can do wrong. I haven't done them all yet.

What NOT to do in large format ?
by Q.-Tuan Luong for the Large Format Page

There are more ways to ruin a photograph than you would think. All these potentially fatal mistakes are specific to large format, in the sense that most of them are impossible, or quite rare with 35mm and MF cameras. Here are some of them, and how to avoid making the mistake. Additional suggestions welcome.

Mistakes make while taking the photograph
lens not stopped down
shutter speed not adjusted
dark slide removed before closing the lens
holder with exposed film used
holder with no film used
camera fired with no film holder inside
dark slide not removed before the exposure
dark slide put back the wrong side
dark slide not put back
rear dark slide pulled out
vignetting due to internal blocking
vignetting due to excessive movements
vignetting due to compendium shade/filters
lack of depth of field
poor focussing
camera controls unlocked
camera shaken by the wind
subject shaken by the wind
reciprocity failure miscompensated
filter factor not taken into account
bellows factor not taken into account
wrong f-stop scale (with convertibles or Nikkor telephoto lenses)
change in light/subject not taken into account
cable release / shade showing in picture
mysterious double image with long exposure
Pre and post exposure mistakes
film loaded backwards
film misloaded
dusk got on the film
forgot at home tripod/holders/essential camera part
darkslide accidentaly opened
wrong developpment (ie color instead of B&W, or +1 instead of -1) applied to the film
flipping the light on before closing film boxes
Defective equipment
light leaks in camera or bellows
light leaks in holders
ground glass mis-alignment
film plane mis-aligned in holders
erratic shutter

Add change:
focal plain slit with the lens cap off, lens open and dark slide out. This puts a diagonal line across the negative.

LF offers more ways to screw up than any other format.

Steve

BrianShaw · Feb 12, 2011

Gee, maybe you guys are right. Now that you list them, that's a lot of ways to screw up. And I'll bet one or two are still missing.

How about this one: Being under the dark cloth and not noticing someone standing in front of the lens obscuring the beautiful landscape being photographed.

Or this one: dust got on the film

I'm thinking of quitting LF and giving all of my equipment away.

is LF really complicated?

olwick

stradibarrius

Steve Smith

goldenimage

Mainecoonmaniac

stradibarrius

Wayne

Jon Harwood

Mainecoonmaniac

Paul Sorensen

removed account4

k_jupiter

Steve Smith

Brian C. Miller

stillsilver

stillsilver

JBrunner

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johnnywalker

RPippin

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BrianShaw

sly

Sirius Glass

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is LF really complicated?

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