Is it sliver gelatin or gelatin silver?

Vaughn · Sep 8, 2018

I heard it start to be used with the rise of alternative photography...in the arts rather than in the trade. It is quite logical that Kodak did not use the term silver gelatin...in-house there was no alternative, no confusion between all their B&W products to create the need for the term. If Kodak produced a line of coated platinum papers and cyanotype papers, perhaps then we would see Kodak distinquish between them all by using the term silver gelatin papers vs cyanotype paper vs platinotype paper.

Doc W · Sep 8, 2018

Ces1um said:
In english the pronoun usually precedes the noun- as in a "red balloon" or a "large apple". If the gelatin is what you are referring to as your main subject then I think silver gelatine would be more correct- as in a gelatin with silver in it- as opposed to a beef gelatin, or say a "gold" gelatin. IF the noun is silver, as in different types of silver such as "oxidized silver" or "braided silver" then I guess gelatin silver would mean there is a specific type of silver out there, distinct from all other types of silver, which is only used for gelatin. Just my two cents...

Here come the grammar police....

The noun in question is "print." "Silver" and "gelatin" and adjectives but you are right that both would precede the noun. So we are back to which one comes first!

How about this: silver-in-gelatin print?

Vaughn · Sep 8, 2018

True -- there are several types of silver-based prints (some without emulsions) and several types of gelatin-based prints.
I make monochromatic, single transfer carbon prints. Fortunately I do not have to mention that the carbon is in gelatin, tho I could say carbon-in-gelatin prints, I suppose. I do add sugar, so Jell-O anyone?

A recent Jello-O Print (4x10, Mill Creek, CA):

Ces1um · Sep 8, 2018

Doc W said:
Here come the grammar police....

The noun in question is "print." "Silver" and "gelatin" and adjectives but you are right that both would precede the noun. So we are back to which one comes first!

How about this: silver-in-gelatin print?

I could live with that! Good catch by the way.

Arklatexian · Sep 8, 2018

Vaughn said:
Silver gelatin is a lot easier to say than, "The kind of prints Ansel Adams use to make.", although when I tell someone I use to make silver gelatin prints, I usually have to say, "You know, the kind of prints Ansel Adams use to make."

I use the term "Black & White". If the picture was made any way other than silver gelatin/gelatin silver, THEN I would specify. .That is if anyone cared enough to ask. Most non-photographic types can tell the difference between black & white and color by simply looking at the picture......Regards!

alentine · Sep 9, 2018

Ces1um said:
In english the pronoun usually precedes the noun- as in a "red balloon" or a "large apple". If the gelatin is what you are referring to as your main subject then I think silver gelatine would be more correct- as in a gelatin with silver in it- as opposed to a beef gelatin, or say a "gold" gelatin. IF the noun is silver, as in different types of silver such as "oxidized silver" or "braided silver" then I guess gelatin silver would mean there is a specific type of silver out there, distinct from all other types of silver, which is only used for gelatin. Just my two cents...

Doc W said:
The noun in question is "print." "Silver" and "gelatin" and adjectives but you are right that both would precede the noun. So we are back to which one comes first!

Doc, is it correct to assume "Print" as the noun of "Silver", so it's truly "Silver Print".
Then to assume "Silver" as the noun or in place of noun of "Gelatin", so it's "Gelatin Silver Print".
Then, "Silver Print" or "Gelatin Silver", are used as short phrase.
In order of importance, it's:
Print,
Silver, then
Gelatin.
Like "Large Green Apple". It's apple in the first place. Green not red. But it can be described "large" among other green apples. I think it's more appropriate than "Green Large Apple".
Just asking.

alentine · Sep 9, 2018

anon12345 said:
Monthly abstract bulletin from the Kodak Research Laboratories, Vols 6-7 (1920)
". . . the first method making use of a single bath containing the dye as well as the bleaching agent, and the second, dyeing or tinting the gelatin silver image in one bath and then bleaching it . . . "

Scientific American monthly - Vol. 3 (1921)
"The gelatin-silver chlorobromide papers are very much more susceptible to such toning than the gelatin-silver bromide papers. "

Journal of the Society of Chemical Industry (1905)
"A gum arabic silver iodide emulsion is similarly found to be 00 to 100 times more sensitive to light than a gelatin silver iodide one."

That's convincing anon.

Photo Engineer · Sep 9, 2018

This is all interesting and somewhat amusing, and yet in spite of the Kodak report and others, I never heard of it in the trade either at shows or scientific meetings. It appeared more frequently after the advent of digital photography.

PE

removed account4 · Sep 9, 2018

i think its a conspiracy

Ces1um · Sep 9, 2018

jnanian said:
i think its a conspiracy

maybe we can't handle the truth?

removed account4 · Sep 9, 2018

Ces1um said:
maybe we can't handle the truth?

you are probably right, i i can't handle the truth

Nodda Duma · Sep 9, 2018

In the late 1800s it was called silver gelatin

MattKing · Sep 9, 2018

Nodda Duma said:
In the late 1800s it was called silver gelatin

IIRC, in the late 1800s, it was just one of several competing processes, rather than the pre-eminent one.
And the late 1800s definitely predates PE .

Vaughn · Sep 9, 2018

jnanian said:
you are probably right, i i can't handle the truth

It's pretty slippery...

Photo Engineer · Sep 9, 2018

MattKing said:
IIRC, in the late 1800s, it was just one of several competing processes, rather than the pre-eminent one.
And the late 1800s definitely predates PE .

Are you sure?

But to answer more broadly, who cares?

PE

removed account4 · Sep 9, 2018

Photo Engineer said:
Are you sure?

But to answer more broadly, who cares?

PE

IDK
i think you might have been sent by industry puppet masters
to try to keep us from the truth. it makes me wonder
how much they are paying you to say such things !
im wondering what fox moulder would be saying right about now !

MattKing · Sep 9, 2018

Photo Engineer said:
Are you sure?

But to answer more broadly, who cares?

PE

Okay - an educated guess!
Posted on what would have been my late Dad's 97th birthday.
Who retired from Kodak, after a lifelong career, even before PE did.

Doc W · Sep 10, 2018

alentine said:
Doc, is it correct to assume "Print" as the noun of "Silver", so it's truly "Silver Print".
Then to assume "Silver" as the noun or in place of noun of "Gelatin", so it's "Gelatin Silver Print".
Then, "Silver Print" or "Gelatin Silver", are used as short phrase.
In order of importance, it's:
Print,
Silver, then
Gelatin.
Like "Large Green Apple". It's apple in the first place. Green not red. But it can be described "large" among other green apples. I think it's more appropriate than "Green Large Apple".
Just asking.

OK, this is what we have so far. We have one noun and two adjectives. The adjectives should precede the noun and the only question is: which adjective goes first?

The example you gave - "large green apple" – sounds correct because, although there is no hard and fast rule, adjectives of size usually precede adjectives of colour. The problem we are having with "silver" and "gelatin," is that both of these appear to be adjectives of material. I suppose we could consider "silver" as a colour rather than a material, in which case we would have "silver gelatin print" because nouns of colour precede those of material. But they don't really look silver. They just have silver in the emulsion.

To complicate this even further, Vaughn says
" there are several types of silver-based prints (some without emulsions) and several types of gelatin-based prints .."

Oy vey! But he is right.

Over the past two days, I have been making silver prints (silver prints on salted paper, no emulsion) and Van Dyke prints, which use iron and also have no emulsion.

So I give up. I am going to stick with "silver gelatin print" even though I think "silver-in-gelatin" is more logical. I just find the hyphens annoying.

REAndy · Sep 10, 2018

Ok, I had to put in my 2 cents on this lively discussion. I first started in photography in the late '70s in high school.
Back then, when someone explained the photographic process, they said that a silver gelatin coating was put on the paper.
Now when I hear "silver gelatin (gelatin silver) people seem to use it as a description of the "type" of photography. Back then it was the "stuff" put on the paper.

Personally I like Analog and Digital when we are trying to use a term to describe the "type" of photography, But then, maybe you can "command" a higher price for a print if you call it a Silver Gelatin Print, instead of an Analog Print.

Doc W · Sep 10, 2018

REAndy said:
... maybe you can "command" a higher price for a print if you call it a Silver Gelatin Print, instead of an Analog Print.

I think you are onto something.

CMoore · Sep 10, 2018

Silver Gelatin.
......only non-photographers, struggling for the correct verbiage would say Gelatin Silver.

Vaughn · Sep 10, 2018

REAndy said:
...Personally I like Analog and Digital when we are trying to use a term to describe the "type" of photography, But then, maybe you can "command" a higher price for a print if you call it a Silver Gelatin Print, instead of an Analog Print.

I guess this must be one of them 'analog' prints. She's on a log.

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