Is it sliver gelatin or gelatin silver?

[RalphLambrecht]

Dear All,

We have always referred to our products as silver gelatin, the worldwide museum community and auction houses usually have it the other way around, I do not think there is a right or wrong way personally.

Simon ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology limted :

Since you're the ones who make it theses days: 'silver gelatin' it is!

 

[Photo Engineer]

And at Kodak we never used the term!

Interesting.

In fact, I erred earlier having never seen the term at GEH, but it seems that they do use it.

PE

 

[artonpaper]

I've been seeing the terms silver gelatin and gelatin silver for as long as I've been looking at photographs in museums--they're certainly not new terms, and weren't created as a response to digital prints. It's been standard practice for museums to describe the print medium to distinguish between processes--salt print, albumen, platinum, bromoil, photogravure, etc.

I started going to galleries and museums to look at photography in the late 1960s and the term was definitely in use then. Another post above makes it clear it's much older than that.

 

[artonpaper]

I am sure that you are quite pleased with your "discovery", but I would like to point out two things.



In the premier days of analog, the term Silver Gelatin was only used by fringe analog photographers to distinguish their materials from mainstream photography.

I'm sorry but in NYC, I went to and was in numerous shows in the 1980's where my work was labeled as "Gelatin Silver" and prior to that the term was widely in use in the galleries here. I've seen it over and over again. I remember hearing one of the proprietors of the Light Gallery explaining it's meaning to a prospective client. That memory is about 1978. (Right after my divorce which is something that you don't forget.)

 

[Klainmeister]

The gallery I went by coupla days ago had all the Adams and Weston prints labelled "Silver Gelatin - Toned" and the others "Inkjet - Archival.

Honestly, the difference in the selenium toned silver prints and the modern inkjet rivals is quite noticeable--way more than I had expected having worked with Canon and HP products for a long time. True depth and tonality wasn't close. Turns out, inkjet just not there yet.

 

[Photo Engineer]

I'm sure you are all correct. My experience is limited to the exhibits at GEH and Kodak work. We never used it at Kodak, and many GEH exhibits gave the paper and method such as "Kodabromide, enlargement from Super XX, gold toned" or whatever (if known), thereby fully explaining things. It seems that they have either changed at GEH, are using another method for on-line posts of prints, or that I simply did not see the words. The first time I saw it used was in Martin Reed's book a few years ago.

I am sorry to have missed all of this as relates to the art world. You may call it what you wish. I will do the same.

With apologies to all.

PE

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

Who cares?

If you understand what the print is based on someone calling them either 'silver gelatin' or 'gelatin silver' - why does it matter?

Inkjet printers call their prints all kinds of things that don't even resemble what they actually are. We are lucky in that respect - the two versions have identical meaning.

 

[tkamiya]

Who cares?

I do. More precisely, I did. I was submitting my work to be judged and displayed. It was important to me that I describe my work accurately and correctly per established standard. (only to find out, there is no such standard....)

 

[Photo Engineer]

Ok, here is the word from George Eastman House and from Eastman Kodak people to further enlighten us all.

Curators at museums and art galleries use Gelatin-Silver. Conservators use Silver-Gelatin as they wish to know the imaging medium first. Either can be used in displays or not at all. Usually, they can be identified at the discretion of the Curator or by product name. Neither naming convention was ever used at Eastman Kodak. The naming conventions may or may not be used at any specific museum or art studio, but with the proviso given above for order of words.

PE

 

[Fattyhamster]

I see this post is quite vintage by now and this response. LOL I believe the silver in the print's gelatin is not replaced by other more stable metals, but surrounded or coated by them, for example, selenium or gold.

I'm not a technician but a long time analogue photographer.

 

[Gerald C Koch]

I do. More precisely, I did. I was submitting my work to be judged and displayed. It was important to me that I describe my work accurately and correctly per established standard. (only to find out, there is no such standard....)

The nice thing about standards Is that there are so many of them.

 

[JW PHOTO]

The nice thing about standards Is that there are so many of them.

Yup Gerald, just about one for every person.

 

[AgX]

Is it sliver gelatin or gelatin silver?

I admit I never heard that expression "sliver" in this context, but it could form an alternative to "grain".

 

[jvo]

it depends on whether you above or below the equator!

jvo

 

[Michel Hardy-Vallée]

You're right: when I checked the National Gallery of Canada and the MoMA, it's "Gelatin silver", cf:
https://www.gallery.ca/collection/artwork/secretary-at-west-german-radio-cologne
https://www.moma.org/interactives/objectphoto/materials/glossary.html

When I checked the Getty Conservation Institute, it's "Silver Gelatin"
http://www.getty.edu/conservation/p...pdf_publications/pdf/atlas_silver_gelatin.pdf

I just had to change that everywhere in my PhD the other day...

Ok, here is the word from George Eastman House and from Eastman Kodak people to further enlighten us all.

Curators at museums and art galleries use Gelatin-Silver. Conservators use Silver-Gelatin as they wish to know the imaging medium first. Either can be used in displays or not at all. Usually, they can be identified at the discretion of the Curator or by product name. Neither naming convention was ever used at Eastman Kodak. The naming conventions may or may not be used at any specific museum or art studio, but with the proviso given above for order of words.

PE

 

[Vaughn]

Silver gelatin is a lot easier to say than, "The kind of prints Ansel Adams use to make.", although when I tell someone I use to make silver gelatin prints, I usually have to say, "You know, the kind of prints Ansel Adams use to make."

 

[slackercrurster]

I think the museums are going with gelatin silver nowadays, but in the past it may have been silver gelatin. Nothing concrete, just my feelings.

Myself? I use silver gelatin.

 

[Ces1um]

In english the pronoun usually precedes the noun- as in a "red balloon" or a "large apple". If the gelatin is what you are referring to as your main subject then I think silver gelatine would be more correct- as in a gelatin with silver in it- as opposed to a beef gelatin, or say a "gold" gelatin. IF the noun is silver, as in different types of silver such as "oxidized silver" or "braided silver" then I guess gelatin silver would mean there is a specific type of silver out there, distinct from all other types of silver, which is only used for gelatin. Just my two cents...

 

[MattKing]

Aren't the silver and the gelatin actually an amalgam?

 

[RalphLambrecht]

Referring to our usual BW printing process, is it "silver gelatin" process or "gelatin silver" process? Which is correct??

I've seen it stated both ways.

Also, I typically see this notation when referring to traditionally processed BW prints but films are basically the same technology, correct???

silver-gelatin but don't care as long as it is B&W

 

[Photo Engineer]

Aren't the silver and the gelatin actually an amalgam?

Where did this come from????

PE

 

[MattKing]

Where did this come from????

PE

It was in response to Ces1um's post about silver "modifying" the gelatin or gelatin "modifying" the silver, and using that as a guide for what phrase would be more appropriate.
Maybe "mixture" would be more appropriate than "amalgam".

 

[Photo Engineer]

None of the above really seem to fit. The two solids are mixed together. The Silver Halide is actually in some degree of chemical bonding with the gelatin, but the Silver metal is not. Probably mixture would be the best choice.

PE

 

[Vaughn]

Where did this come from???? PE

I had to look up amalgam. For some reason I was thinking 'palindrome' and I tried spelling amalgam backwards...but maglama made less sense than my usual posts.

USA Truth in Labeling laws usually require the most plentiful ingredient to go first (gelatin silver, in this case), but traditional names are often grandfathered in...such as 'Pork and Beans'.

 

[Photo Engineer]

But then, until the debut of digital, I had never heard anyone in the trade use either term. It has only become mainstream recently.

PE