Is it sliver gelatin or gelatin silver?

Bob Carnie · Apr 3, 2011

Don't think so,
these prints have been described in shows as silver gelatin or dye coupler for as long as I can remember.
Has nothing to do with a response to digital.
I am using silver gelatin fibre paper to make digital prints.
so they are described as such.

Bill Burk said:
PE, I think you're right about it being new terminology. Looten's "on Photographic Enlarging and Print Quality" 1951 printing calls his examples prints, pictures or photographs.

Photo Engineer · Apr 3, 2011

Cesaraugusta said:
Monthly abstract bulletin from the Kodak Research Laboratories, Vols 6-7 (1920)
". . . the first method making use of a single bath containing the dye as well as the bleaching agent, and the second, dyeing or tinting the gelatin silver image in one bath and then bleaching it . . . "

Scientific American monthly - Vol. 3 (1921)
"The gelatin-silver chlorobromide papers are very much more susceptible to such toning than the gelatin-silver bromide papers. "

Journal of the Society of Chemical Industry (1905)
"A gum arabic silver iodide emulsion is similarly found to be 00 to 100 times more sensitive to light than a gelatin silver iodide one."

My 2nd grade show-n-tell project, (1967)
"I helped my uncle build his portable darkroom. He makes silver gelatin prints with a red light. Here's one . . . see."

I am sure that you are quite pleased with your "discovery", but I would like to point out two things.

1. Silver gelatin in the first context refers to what remained in the film or paper after the bleach.

2. Many trade journals and scientific journales in the 20s and earlier used Silver Gelatin as well, to distinguish the process from Collodion and other alternative processes. This is similar to what we are observing now as there is a shift to digital.

In the premier days of analog, the term Silver Gelatin was only used by fringe analog photographers to distinguish their materials from mainstream photography.

Even so, the post here have shown every POV. Nevertheless, I have never seen it used in any photo magazine, scientific journal, or internal EK report. This spans the years from about 1950 - present, with the exception of APUG and some books written by non-scientists or non-engineers. In fact, mainstream photographers don't generally use this term. They refer to the actual product such as Ilford MGIV or Kodabromide or Tri-X or Delta rather than append Silver Gelatin negative made on Delta for example.

PE

tkamiya · Apr 3, 2011

I didn't specifically state so in my original post but my interest was mainly how the terms are used/defined in art world, not in lab or scientific field. The question first came about when I was filling a form to submit my work to a (school) gallery fora competition and I had to describe my work. I ended up stating "photograph - gelatin silver print." Anyway, for my purpose, now the question has been answered. TKAMIYA is signing off (from this thread)

MattKing · Apr 3, 2011

If you shoot 4x5 film, it is "silver gelatin".

If you shoot 5x4 film, it is "gelatin silver"

Photo Engineer · Apr 3, 2011

tkamiya said:
I didn't specifically state so in my original post but my interest was mainly how the terms are used/defined in art world, not in lab or scientific field. The question first came about when I was filling a form to submit my work to a (school) gallery fora competition and I had to describe my work. I ended up stating "photograph - gelatin silver print." Anyway, for my purpose, now the question has been answered. TKAMIYA is signing off (from this thread)

To answer directly then:

At George Eastman House, prints are labeled (AFAIK) as Collodion, POP, daguerreotype, albumen, tintype etc. However, I have seen no labels on straight Silver Gelatin (so called). Straight Silver Gelatin is unlabeled except for artist. Others contain the name of the method. With many Silver Gelatin prints, the film and paper are identified if known.

Digital is probably labeled Ink Jet or Pigmented Ink, but I have never seen any of them there. No masterpieces yet.

PE

anon12345 · Apr 3, 2011

Photo Engineer said:
I am sure that you are quite pleased with your "discovery", but I would like to point out two things.

1. Silver gelatin in the first context refers to what remained in the film or paper after the bleach.

PE

Yes, it was stated . . . "a gelatin silver image". No great discovery on my part. Nothing to be overly pleased about.

Vaughn · Apr 3, 2011

The phrase "silver gelatin" just rolls off the tongue better for me. I find the term useful, otherwise I am stuck with "the regular kind of B&W photograph".

The truth-in-labeling laws would tend to require it to be gelatin silver, since there is more gelatin than silver, but perhaps it has the exception that "Pork and Beans" has...

Photo Engineer · Apr 3, 2011

Dann, no offense intended. Just a quip on my part.

Vaughn, I love your reasoning.

Actually, I have begun to use Silver Gelatin myself in my work as conventional analog retreats. I have to have something to distinguish it from anything else out there. My former co-workers would probably disagree. IDK.

PE

Vilk · Apr 3, 2011

how about gelatin-silver? the order of apposition shouldn't hurt that much

Photo Engineer · Apr 3, 2011

Well, Silver comes first as the active ingredient!

But then, in Pork and Beans it is the opposite!

PE

Bill Burk · Apr 3, 2011

Tkamiya,
I think the thread has pointed out that it may be said either way, and that I am more familiar with the American museum term.

I look forward to seeing a "photograph - gelatin silver print" of yours. No need for correction.

I also would not mind seeing a "photograph - print by Bob Carnie". Though I might wonder if what I am looking at is ADA, DDA, or AAA.

erikg · Apr 3, 2011

A check at George Eastman House online collection shows "gelatin silver print" in use. I was just checking out some Thomas Barrow stuff. I can spend hours on that site.

And I agree with Bill, I also wouldn't mind seeing a Tkamiya print... or a print by Bob Carnie. As great as it is to see stuff on line, a real print is still the best for me.

Bob Carnie · Apr 3, 2011

I am pretty open to any type of print, digital , hybrid or enlarger.
I like them all , today I am printing 20 x 24 ilford warmtone from 8x10 and 4x5 negs, tommorow well 11 x14 from 6 x7 and 35 mm negs, yesterday made a pretty good giclee of my dog barney, tues I have to make some negs on the digital enlarger to make lith contact prints, Wed hoping to make some murals on the good old Ilford Warmtone for the guy I am printing for today.

I can assure you Bill, anything I print is going to be ok, you just have to pick your poison.

Bill Burk said:
Tkamiya,
I think the thread has pointed out that it may be said either way, and that I am more familiar with the American museum term.

I look forward to seeing a "photograph - gelatin silver print" of yours. No need for correction.

I also would not mind seeing a "photograph - print by Bob Carnie". Though I might wonder if what I am looking at is ADA, DDA, or AAA.

Photo Engineer · Apr 3, 2011

erikg said:
A check at George Eastman House online collection shows "gelatin silver print" in use. I was just checking out some Thomas Barrow stuff. I can spend hours on that site.

And I agree with Bill, I also wouldn't mind seeing a Tkamiya print... or a print by Bob Carnie. As great as it is to see stuff on line, a real print is still the best for me.

Thanks for pointing that out.

I personally have never seen it used in exhibits there. I must be blind, or they changed their methodology, or even it may be that they use it on-line.

Again, thanks. I stand corrected.

PE

Bill Burk · Apr 3, 2011

Bob Carnie said:
I can assure you Bill, anything I print is going to be ok, you just have to pick your poison.

That's kind of what I meant.

Bob Carnie · Apr 3, 2011

Bill
I have been thinking about making sample prints for people to view.
If I get permission from one of my heavy hitters I was thinking to actually make sample 11x14 print along side a dvd of how it was made.
For my sanity , I would like to do this with an image that is slated for museum viewing so it would be a killer print, for the purchaser a bit of history and future worth. The person I think this may work with is going to make a quality book and maybe putting a signed book, signed print and dvd may be of interested to other printers.
This may take me some time and permission but it's something worth considering. Who knows commercial silver gelatin printers like may be a thing of the past in 20 years.
Bob

Bill Burk said:
That's kind of what I meant.

brian steinberger · Apr 3, 2011

Bob, I think many of us would like to see videos of you printing!

tomalophicon · Apr 3, 2011

If you're a really classy kind-o-person it's silver gelatine

2F/2F · Apr 3, 2011

It's silver suspended in a thin gelatin sliver.

DWThomas · Apr 3, 2011

In line with someone else upthread, I've been following the food ingredients theory and using "gelatin silver." One thing I know for sure is that many shows I enter don't give enough room on their entry forms to write much of anything, as though they don't want to know.

anon12345 · Apr 3, 2011

Photo Engineer said:
Dann, no offense intended. Just a quip on my part.
PE

No offense taken PE. We'll surely lock horns in another thread. When that day comes, I will gladly offer you the opportunity to win back your crown.
You will know it's time when I make this sound . . ..http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-TIzjxu0tHE

Christie's, the auction house, is using "Gelatin Silver Print" to describe the photographs in their upcoming April sales as listed on-line. Swann Auction Galleries appears to be listing theirs as "Silver Print".

2F/2F · Apr 3, 2011

DWThomas said:
In line with someone else upthread, I've been following the food ingredients theory and using "gelatin silver." One thing I know for sure is that many shows I enter don't give enough room on their entry forms to write much of anything, as though they don't want to know.

I agree with that line of thought.

I also have never seen it hyphenated, which I think it ought to be, in any case.

To me, "gelatin-silver" makes the most sense of the options. But maybe something like "colloidal silver print" would actually be better.

Photo Engineer · Apr 3, 2011

Doesn't someone who makes them have a vote?

I vote for silver gelatin if anything must be used.

PE

lxdude · Apr 4, 2011

Cesaraugusta said:
You will know it's time when I make this sound . . ..http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-TIzjxu0tHE

Now I'm wondering if it's Santa Claus uttering the deep ho-ho-ho at Christmastime.

Simon R Galley · Apr 4, 2011

Dear All,

We have always referred to our products as silver gelatin, the worldwide museum community and auction houses usually have it the other way around, I do not think there is a right or wrong way personally.

Simon ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology limted :

Is it sliver gelatin or gelatin silver?

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