Is it really true that...

[Hexavalent]

I've been making emulsions for a couple years now. Started with a workshop at Eastman House, making a simple Azo-type paper.

Having "caught the bug", I've been slowly building a lab so that I can pursue the more technically advanced preparations. Although a decent emulsion can be made simply with minimal equipment - pursuing higher speeds, spectral sensitivity, latitude, good LIK etc., does require some $$ chemistry and equipment.

Along with copious amounts reading (both old and newer technical information), experimentation, and the disposal of significant amounts of money (by my standards), I've had some great successes, and many failures.

Ron (PE) has been very supportive: advising on technical matters, hand-holding, and saving me from racing down the wrong path.

Unfortunately, there has been a history of "pissing matches" regarding emulsion work on APUG: unsubstantiated technical claims, dismissal of advanced techniques/chemistry as being "unnecessary", and often, a bizarre bias against anything related to EK. For this reason, I've taken the majority of my discussions off-line.

 

[Vaughn]

My emulsion making will have to be limited to carbon printing for the next few years -- still have three teenagers in the house and a job. But I bought a house and with (finally) my own darkroom in the foreseeable future, such endeavors such as film-making will be possible.

 

[winger]

A class is not needed and the time required isn't that much. If you could make a cake from scratch, you can make and coat an emulsion.

Actually, it's a fine activity that you can do in stages. For example, precipitate and ripen. Stick in the refrigerator and walk away for a week. Wash, then refrigerate and walk away and so on. A work flow like that may or make not make a noticeable difference in the final product but you can work that way with just fine results. Most of the hardware supplies you need that you might not already have in your darkroom can be bought at any dollar store.

I didn't know that. (And I'm not entirely sure about the cake part, but I am a chemist who has made acrylamide gels for electrophoresis successfully).

.....And Jason (above) is spot-on. So many things are far more about organization than actual time. It really comes down to priorities and what stokes the fire in your belly. No right or wrong answers there, of course. But, sometimes excuses should be recognized and acknowledged.

And for those of us who haven't done more than read a bit about it, we don't necessarily know that we can put it away for a bit until we have another block of time. I also have a very tough time learning anything by reading about it. A class would be the visual learning push that would make the reading make sense.
It's tough to know where to start without a class to see what really matters in doing it. Those who have been doing it for awhile don't always remember what it's like to be a total newb (I know I was bad with that aspect when teaching new trace analysts how to do polarized light microscopy and infrared spectroscopy). Having a simple roadmap would be a great assist.
I'd be most interested in making paper - especially one that worked well for contact prints as I'm currently in between darkrooms and don't have an enlarger.

 

[dwross]

Emulsion making has been high on my to-do list for several years now, but has never quite bubbled to the top. If I can manage to quit my day job, ship my kid off to college, and get the cleaning fairies to take care of the kitchen, I'm there!

The one-day seminar at the Light Farm a few years back was enormously inspirational, and I'm sort of embarrassed that I never got around to following up on it, but one of these days. I wonder if there aren't a lot of people (well, "a lot" in relative terms) in a similar position, hanging back from saying anything because we have nothing to add to the discussion yet.

-NT

Nate:

That was a fun weekend. I had a great time. I'm glad you remember it fondly. Every year I think about doing it again, but can never get it pulled together (See, when I preach about organization, it's from embarrassing personal experience!) Next summer, if you come to Florence, drive up the road for the afternoon and visit. If you give me a head's up, maybe I can even organize something .

 

[dwross]

Bethe,

Workshops can be a lot of fun, but they are also expensive and few and far between. If you are interested in working with homemade paper, I hope you don't wait for a brick and mortar workshop. I invite you to check out the web tutorials on The Light Farm. I designed them to be go-at-your-own-pace home workshops. The first recipe (KCl Gaslight Paper) is a fool-proof contact printing paper. I can't imagine you'll have any difficulties, but I welcome any and all feedback.

http://thelightfarm.com/Map/TLFTutorials/tlftutorials-handmade-silver-gelatin-emulsions.htm

 

[DannL.]

A question for the masses . . . When was the first ready-to-use silver gelatin emulsion sold to the public? I am speaking of emulsions similar to Rockland's liquid light, etc. I would guess it must have proceeded the commercial sale of dry-plates themselves, but I would be very interested in learning of the actual history behind these emulsions. And not to steer the thread to far into left field.

 

[gandolfi]

Hi DannL,

$-wise, homemade is a lot cheaper. Time-wise, of course you are right. Every step of d.i.y. does add time to a process.

I've come to think of all this as Slow Photography, done for all the reasons gardening and real cooking are done. I'm on the same page as MDR. Knowing your materials and process adds a whole new layer to the experience. Also nice to know that a paper or film will be available for as long as I want to make it, not for as long or short a time as some commercial interest decides they want to.

!

First: MOMUS: NO this isn't America! site is worldwide and run and owned from New Zealand....

A couple of things: first remember not all here are from America, and I can for one state with out question, that a ready made emulsion here is FAR less expensive than the home made one!

Secondly. a lot of the raw chemicals are next to impossible to get here with out a police permit. And a VAT registration... So it is limited what one actually can do, even if we want to...

I have made my own simple emulsions from scratch and it was a fun challenge - and I truely would like to do more...

Also "you" have a formidable opponent these days: the Wet Plate imagery... It is like this has quickly become the thing to do for so many people.. And no matter how bad images made the applause is always great and loud...

I would like to learn wet-plate - incognito, and learn to master the dry method publicly and loudly.... (albeit I think I am almost alone in that..)

However a photographic asylum in America might be first on the agenda..

 

[Ian Grant]

Unfortunately, there has been a history of "pissing matches" regarding emulsion work on APUG: unsubstantiated technical claims, dismissal of advanced techniques/chemistry as being "unnecessary", and often, a bizarre bias against anything related to EK. For this reason, I've taken the majority of my discussions off-line.

Your last paragraph need addressing, it's not that there's a bizarre bias against EK rather that some here think that was the only cutting edge company. Ilford were way ahead and so were Agfa in terms of B&W emulsions and chemistry until the 1980's. And then it's conveniently forgotten that much of Kodak's cutting edge research took place outside EK at Kodak Ltd, Harrow.

I rarely post on emulsion making here despite having over 10 years commercial experience because there is such a heavy bias towards one persons work which skews threads into there's only one way.

There's many way to skin a cat There's different approaches which can give near identical results as I learnt for myself when I worked with an Ilford emulsion for a short time (early 1980's) alongside our own emulsion.

Ian

 

[dwross]

Emil,

Your situation may not be as grim as you think! "Polder", here on APUG, has been making wonderful progress with emulsions in Germany. He has written a number of articles for TLF (all of which I have enjoyed immensely) but one in particular might be useful to you. http://www.thelightfarm.com/Map/Index/HenkMantel2/ChemicalList.htm

You are an amazing and eclectic artist. I can imagine you'd like to try ALL of the processes someday. I wish you all the luck in that, but would it be OK if I hope you declde to do more silver gelatin emulsions? The portrait made on a simple Br paper you posted a short while ago was stunning. Don't listen to the voices that say an emulsion has to be more complicated than the one you made. (Ian: please note that I said doesn't have to be, not shouldn't be.)

 

[Hexavalent]

Ian,

Indeed there are many ways to skin a cat. Ilford, Agfa, Polaroid, Fuji, CIBA and a host of others have all been key players in raising the bar of photographic chemistry. In strange way, EK is a easy target to be labelled as having some sort of "industry arrogance", much in the same way that people target Microsoft.

Oh well, I'm just trying to gather information, cram it into my skull, and hopefully use it to further my emulsion projects.

Your last paragraph need addressing, it's not that there's a bizarre bias against EK rather that some here think that was the only cutting edge company. Ilford were way ahead and so were Agfa in terms of B&W emulsions and chemistry until the 1980's. And then it's conveniently forgotten that much of Kodak's cutting edge research took place outside EK at Kodak Ltd, Harrow.

I rarely post on emulsion making here despite having over 10 years commercial experience because there is such a heavy bias towards one persons work which skews threads into there's only one way.

There's many way to skin a cat There's different approaches which can give near identical results as I learnt for myself when I worked with an Ilford emulsion for a short time (early 1980's) alongside our own emulsion.

Ian

 

[Prof_Pixel]

it's not that there's a bizarre bias against EK rather that some here think that was the only cutting edge company.

I don't see any bias against the EK Company. However, I think we all know who have been involved in 'pissing matches' regarding emulsion making here in the Forums.

 

[Ian Grant]

Oh well, I'm just trying to gather information, cram it into my skull, and hopefully use it to further my emulsion projects.

That's the important part and it's the sharing of experience that's important.

Strangely what I don't see is how changing certain parameters has large effects on the resulting emulsion, something I learnt very ealry on.

Ian

 

[Ian Grant]

I don't see any bias against the EK Company. However, I think we all know who have been involved in 'pissing matches' regarding emulsion making here in the Forums.

Well I've never said there was a bias against EK, I've only ever seen the exact opposite a huge bias for EK However I've only seen you post as is, no Bias, sure there can be an EK perspective.

Ian

 

[Hexavalent]

Strangely what I don't see is how changing certain parameters has large effects on the resulting emulsion, something I learnt very ealry on.

Ian

I'm not quite sure if I'm addressing your statement about "parameters", but I'll offer that I've learned (the hard way) that time/temp/reagent conc. during "finishing" (sulfur/gold) can be critical when trying to squeeze another stop or two from an emulsion. Some of the procedures are probably easier done a large scale as opposed to a basement lab scale.

 

[kb3lms]

still have three teenagers in the house and a job.

Me too. Actually 4 teenagers (girls). I'll be the first to tell you that other than the holidays when I may cram in a few batches, I get to make a run about every other month. Actually, my last batch (and first ortho) made in June is about 1/2 used. Checked it last week and it hasn't grown fur so it should still be good. Right now I don't have time to coat the rest of it and still two rolls to shoot up from the last coating. My batches are about 150ml each. I have made single jet and double jet runs and while I haven't actually achieved VAg control, I can accurately measure and track VAg and rudimentary control is within my grasp. That means it isn't hard. There is noting in my setup other than the silver wire that didn't come from a local hardware store. The silver wire I bought online.

Due to time, work and extra-curricular constraints I have never taken any classes. Out of about a dozen runs that I have made, one was a complete dud and one other, the first, wasn't great. Everything else has given something very usable.

Get a credit card that gives you cash reward points and use the points to buy Silver Nitrate. 50 grams will go a long way at small size batches, say 6 to 8 and maybe more. The other chemicals are relatively cheap. Depending on how well I can coat I get 8 to 10 120 size rolls out of a batch. The subbing problem has been solved for coating on PET (there are various ways) and glass I understand is not a problem at all.

VAg control is not necessary at all. Don't even think about it unless that curiosity level strikes you. Cyanine dyes for panchromatic film get expensive but erythrosine for ortho is not. (Search here and figure out why) Again, don't worry about panchromatic till that peaks your interest. You don't need T-Grains - although it is one of those holy grails.

Use your moments of down time to read some of the old literature or search out some of the landmark books from the used online bookstores. Yes, there are pristine copies of Glafkides listed for well over $400. You don't need pristine. Patience will find you a serviceable set in the $50 range. Baker's 2nd edition is often well over $100. I got mine for about $40 and it is like new except for a faded spine. I missed a copy on the big auction site for a whopping $2.48, no doubt to someone within our ranks here. (Congrats if it was you!)

You do not need EK, Ilford, etc. consistency and quality just like you don't need a Ferrari to go to the grocery store or the latest, greatest Nikon to take a picture of your kid. Fords work just fine. Keep that in mind.

Carbon printing is a mystery to me. And what in the world is gum printing? Gum is something for teenage girls that I can't possibly imagine printing anything with.

Tweak the knobs.

-- Jason

 

[Vaughn]

A father of 4 teenage girls actually wrote "Tweak the knobs"?!

Carbon printing -- aka, Jell-O printing. It takes the time I might spend on emulsion making for film. When I print something in a hurry I platinum print!

PS -- I got boys...two of them are escorting homecoming princesses Friday!

 

[Bill Burk]

PS -- I got boys...two of them are escorting homecoming princesses Friday!

They couldn't find triplet princesses?

 

[removed account4]

hey denise

id love to see more posts here about emulsion making and the use of liquid emulsions.
they are a lot of fun. as a university student i fiddled around with making emulsions
mind didn't come out very good, but i did manage to make one, but then was turned onto liquid light
which became my go-to for years.

ive been kind of stagnant since the spring .. and was coating glass and metal plates
as well as paper and doing some fun-stuff, but the summer rolled around and other obligations set in
so i put everything on the back burner .. maybe this fall+winter i will get back on the wagon i fell off of

not sure how much less expensive making emulsion from scratch is or might be, or even using it from a bottle,
but it is definitely a lot of fun seeing an image appear on something that was hand coated because a lot of the time
things change between uses as the emulsion ages or whatever
its really like the movie run lola run sometimes ...

 

[Vaughn]

They couldn't find triplet princesses?

 

[Ian Grant]

I'm not quite sure if I'm addressing your statement about "parameters", but I'll offer that I've learned (the hard way) that time/temp/reagent conc. during "finishing" (sulfur/gold) can be critical when trying to squeeze another stop or two from an emulsion. Some of the procedures are probably easier done a large scale as opposed to a basement lab scale.

That's exactly what I meant. Somewhere in my old notes I drew up a diagram on how different parameters could affect an emulsion, I'm fairly sure it came from studying "The Photographic Emulsion" by Carroll, Hubbard, and Kretschman, The Focal Press. (A PDF version of the book can be found at TheLightFarm).

Ian

 

[dwross]

A father of 4 teenage girls actually wrote "Tweak the knobs"?!

Carbon printing -- aka, Jell-O printing. It takes the time I might spend on emulsion making for film. When I print something in a hurry I platinum print!

PS -- I got boys...two of them are escorting homecoming princesses Friday!

Just as handsome as their daddy . I could see that one coming when they were just twelve!

Congrats on the new house and soon-to-be darkroom! Hopefully, it won't be too long before we can try dry plate and carbon combos.

 

[dwross]

...

the summer rolled around and other obligations set in
so i put everything on the back burner .. maybe this fall+winter i will get back on the wagon i fell off of

...

"off the wagon" happens (at least to me and everyone else I know). I figure it's just the Universe giving you space to refill the creative well. Best of luck.

Speaking of which, I'm procrastinating on making a set of autochrome screen tests. You probably know the feeling. Everything is lined up and ready to go. That was the easy part. The "plunge" into the unknown, on the other hand...

 

[David Foy]

One of the interesting things about the emulsion discussions on APUG, interesting to me anyway, is how they illuminate two distinct, and distinctly different, approaches.
One is what I think of as the engineering approach. Calling the other the artistic approach is too glib, and a little dismissive, but useful enough that I'll go ahead and do it, hoping readers understand that I mean no disrespect.
People who are deeply committed to one approach or the other sometimes find themselves offended when their assumptions are challenged. To tell an engineer that all his/her hoo-rah and foo-fraw is unnecessary, or to tell artists that they're not being careful enough, is about something other than emulsion-making, it's about how to live and get things done, and it's a rubbing that can create sparks.
There are accomplished people here working from both viewpoints, whom I learn a lot from, and I appreciate it when they share with me. I expect to be making my first emulsion in a few weeks. I don't happen to believe that my artistic vision is so good that I should publish or display my photographs, and I will never be an engineer, but I will be making use of both kinds of experience. I will share what I learn.
Everybody who posts here has my thanks.

 

[wildbillbugman]

Vaughn,
I know, only because you said so, that your triplets are not identical. You coulda fooled me. I knew a man who's two identical sons married two identical twins. At the same ceremony. That's wilder than emulsion making could ever be.

 

[MattKing]

Vaughn,
I know, only because you said so, that your triplets are not identical. You coulda fooled me. I knew a man who's two identical sons married two identical twins. At the same ceremony. That's wilder than emulsion making could ever be.

I'm glad I wasn't the wedding photographer - just think how difficult it would be organizing print orders!