Is it me, or did I miss something?

[jvo]

tis, welcome to apug...


re. the noob to photography... he wrote seeking advice... as usual when you ask a range of people for advice you're gonna get a wide variety of responses - some thoughtful/thoughtless, some value/waste, some inspiring/depressing, etc. if your young fellow has the talent and persistence to build an enlarger, i think he'll have the desire and interest to stick around. takes all kinds to make a world. my choice would tend toward welcoming and charitable!
jvo

 

[frank]

Sometimes newbies (to any endeavour) innocently don't know better, and don't ask the right questions. He may have naively believed that enlargers were super expensive and asked about building his own based on a misconception. If the post had read as if he were experienced, the advice would probably have been more directed at where he was looking to go.

 

[blockend]

I guess you're suggesting that obstacles are helpful in finding and expressing ones vision, and I'm saying that an obstacle is an obstacle. If ones vision is strong enough nothing can stop it, but not everyone is an artistic genius and some of us just want a hobby. It's all good.

My first reaction to the OPs post was to say, limit the variables. In other words stick with one film and developer, master the times and temperature, get an enlarger with a flat field of illumination and use a good lens at an optimum aperture. Make sure your developer is at the right temperature and prints are properly washed.
However thinking about it a little deeper, that's what most film photographers do and the results are, for the most part, utterly unremarkable. With 4 decades of darkroom experience as an amateur and pro, I say just go for it. He'll learn a great deal about light and exposure and the worst that can happen is he wastes a few sheets of paper (I don't know how many boxes of paper I've used in 40 years in test strips alone). In 2016 if he's interested in "good" photographs and he's on a budget he can buy a 6-10mp DSLR for the price of a bulk roll of film, and take thousands of shots for the price of a memory card. The fact he wants to make an enlarger suggests he has much more about him than that shallow aim.

Miroslav Tichy made some of the worst photos ever, technically speaking (and probably in terms of taste), but has been hung in galleries many photographers can only dream of. What does our young guy have to lose?

 

[Tis Himself]

Some very interesting thoughts and comments on my original post. The young man HAD investigated purchasing a used enlarger. He had found one for 20 Euros, but the shipping was going to be 70 Euros. He was asking himself if it was worth it TO HIM to pay 90 Euros for an enlarger that was worth 20 Euros. IMHO pretty perceptive for a 16 year old. This is when he decided to try and build one and was seeking info on the availability of plans.

If film photography is to survive (stop the hemorrhage of disappearing manufacturers, photo stores, etc.), I believe that we collectively must encourage any and all who show any amount of interest to explore this endeavor. If we are honest with ourselves, I believe that somewhere along the way someone encouraged each of us. It might have been something as simple as someone giving you an old camera they no longer wanted, or a neighbor who let you watch them develop a print, or any number of other ways. Nonetheless, all were encouragement, no matter how subtle.

 

[blockend]

Some very interesting thoughts and comments on my original post. The young man HAD investigated purchasing a used enlarger. He had found one for 20 Euros, but the shipping was going to be 70 Euros.

My advice would be keep looking. I paid £1 for a monochrome enlarger and about £60 for a pro colour enlarger. Chances are someone in the vicinity will have one if he puts the word out and is prepared to wait. Meanwhile if he has a d*g*t*l camera he can "scan" the negatives. Not ideal but better than now't. There must surely be facsimiles of 1950s "Make Your Own Enlarger" articles somewhere on the internet?

 

[Wayne]

I'm not smarter than any kind of chemist. In fact I think what I do is stupid by any sort of scientific measure.

But I'm not doing science in the darkroom.

 

[David Brown]

If film photography is to survive (stop the hemorrhage of disappearing manufacturers, photo stores, etc.), I believe that we collectively must encourage any and all who show any amount of interest to explore this endeavor. If we are honest with ourselves, I believe that somewhere along the way someone encouraged each of us. It might have been something as simple as someone giving you an old camera they no longer wanted, or a neighbor who let you watch them develop a print, or any number of other ways. Nonetheless, all were encouragement, no matter how subtle.

I absolutely agree. I started doing darkroom in the 1960s, and there were a lot of folks, then and now, including an actual neighbor with a darkroom (I had a crush on his daughter, too, so it was a package deal).

However, darkroom photography was (and is) considered a mature industry and process, and I was never encouraged by anyone to "reinvent the wheel". Experimentation is fine, but following the tried and true ways until one knows that they are doing is preferable. Same with tools (gear). Get the right tools. No need to make your own.

One of the things I do with students and beginners is to enlighten them on the many sources of materials and equipment. That will ensure the continued manufacturing and supply of what we need much more than encouraging a "make your own" philosophy. Slightly off-topic, but I feel the same way about wet-plate, and its brethren - that is, those "hand-made" processes are fine if one wants to pursue them, but they are not helping film and paper manufacturing!

 

[blansky]

I've found that a large number of photographers are rather blind to the idea that people like playing with mechanical things. Many are obviously very baffled by the idea that someone somewhere might want to actually build something, or design things, or to create something new or different from what others are currently using, and that people can take great pleasure of that in and of itself with zero relation to the passion that is photography.

"Why would you want to do that when you could be taking photos?!"

It can be maddening to try and talk about design details with photographers at times, because many seem to feel that camera designs are somehow holy relics or something. Cameras and related gear are apparently things that are prefect, and to talk about changes to them is somehow blasphemy of some sort.

I've tried to start conversations about various topics, but had them grind to a halt with "Someone else has already made the tools, why on earth would you want to make more?!", which I find rather ironic, given the kind of response you might get if you asked why anyone would want to take photos when you could just order prints of existing ones online for far less.

As with almost all threads on APUG they usually evolve or devolve into the same thread only expressed or argued in a different manner. Although that can be fun too.

And to continue in that vein I will reiterate that because we ourselves have a mindset or a goal for our photography we still have to remember that other people come at things from an entirely different mindset. Many on this site consider photography a hobby and many more are probably retired and this is their new chosen way to spend their last days. (ha ha). Others are serious amateurs and some are professionals. And we all have different goals and uses for our photography.

So when one persons goal is to make commercially salable work for their niche in this field, other people goals are to enjoy the time consuming process of the process of photography. Since their prints have no commercial value to them, selling them is not even a consideration. To them its about the enjoyment or masochism of going through the processes and steps of traditional photography and print making. Other people are far more interested in streamlining the processes and concentrating on getting the best print possible and spending their time on the end results. And there are all the people in between.

So while some would prefer the journey, so to speak, which to them is the journey to get to the print, others perhaps are more concerned with the journey to be more salable and to advance in that direction, and doing tedious darkroom steps actually can actually slow down their journey.

So when we ask questions, or debate or argue with other people here, we have to realize that in most cases our goals are entirely different.

Some people garden to enjoy gardening and others garden to get fresh food for their table or to sell. All these people are gardeners but for different reasons.

 

[frank]

As with almost all threads on APUG they usually evolve or devolve into the same thread only expressed or argued in a different manner. Although that can be fun too.

And to continue in that vein I will reiterate that because we ourselves have a mindset or a goal for our photography we still have to remember that other people come at things from an entirely different mindset. Many on this site consider photography a hobby and many more are probably retired and this is their new chosen way to spend their last days. (ha ha). Others are serious amateurs and some are professionals. And we all have different goals and uses for our photography.

So when one persons goal is to make commercially salable work for their niche in this field, other people goals are to enjoy the time consuming process of the process of photography. Since their prints have no commercial value to them, selling them is not even a consideration. To them its about the enjoyment or masochism of going through the processes and steps of traditional photography and print making. Other people are far more interested in streamlining the processes and concentrating on getting the best print possible and spending their time on the end results. And there are all the people in between.

So while some would prefer the journey, so to speak, which to them is the journey to get to the print, others perhaps are more concerned with the journey to be more salable and to advance in that direction, and doing tedious darkroom steps actually can actually slow down their journey.

So when we ask questions, or debate or argue with other people here, we have to realize that in most cases our goals are entirely different.

Some people garden to enjoy gardening and others garden to get fresh food for their table or to sell. All these people are gardeners but for different reasons.

This post should be a sticky somewhere. Top of the APUG main page would be a good spot.

 

[Ken Nadvornick]

This post should be a sticky somewhere. Top of the APUG main page would be a good spot.

Frank, you beat me to it. Insightfully excellent post.

Making its reading a membership prerequisite would eliminate 90% of the discord we suffer here.

Ken

 

[DREW WILEY]

OK. I am one of those persons who recommended he just go out and pick up a pre-built enlarger. And I am a tinkerer, who has built some enlargers
from scratch, albeit rather fancy ones. The point is not to discourage anyone; but frankly, what he hand in mind looked like something that would burn
a house down. You don't want to lead someone down that kind of path.

 

[Luckless]

OK. I am one of those persons who recommended he just go out and pick up a pre-built enlarger. And I am a tinkerer, who has built some enlargers
from scratch, albeit rather fancy ones. The point is not to discourage anyone; but frankly, what he hand in mind looked like something that would burn
a house down. You don't want to lead someone down that kind of path.

People tend to not learn a great deal when the answers they get to questions they ask basically boil down to "You are too stupid to do anything on your own, have someone else do it for you."

See a flaw in a design or a pitfall in someone's current plan? Then maybe politely point it out and explain why you feel it is a flaw that should be addressed, and offer useful solutions on how one could go about correcting it if you have any. Actively steering people away from actually solving problems is a great way to kill another's creativity.

 

[DREW WILEY]

First of all, I never called this person stupid. He's just in over his head. So second, I do not intend to offer an online basic electronics class. That's what middle schools are for. So, like others, I cut to the chases and recommended just picking up a free enlarger somewhere. If he lived around here, I would have given him one myself. For the same reason, I don't think I'm going to tell someone how to make their own stop bath from straight glacial acetic acid if they've never had a basic chemistry class in school. That kind of thing is not doing anyone a favor.

 

[Ken Nadvornick]

People tend to not learn a great deal when the answers they get to questions they ask basically boil down to "You are too stupid to do anything on your own, have someone else do it for you.".

Failure is Nature's learning incubator. If one isn't actively failing, one isn't actively learning. Or put another way, if one is only succeeding, one is only repeating an already known sequence of steps.

The only sure thing in a lottery is that you can't win if you don't first risk losing by playing. Never tell someone not to try. That's an absolute.

Ken

 

[Sirius Glass]

People tend to not learn a great deal when the answers they get to questions they ask basically boil down to "You are too stupid to do anything on your own, have someone else do it for you."

This is a gross over simplification of the discussion. It is much less cost effective to find a free enlarger or an inexpensive enlarger than to build one from parts. Also once one has an enlarger there are many experiments one can do with it including working with different lenses.

 

[Ken Nadvornick]

I don't think I'm going to tell someone how to make their own stop bath from straight glacial acetic acid if they've never had a basic chemistry class in school. That kind of thing is not doing anyone a favor.

From memory...

Add 7 parts glacial acetic acid to 18 parts distilled water, strictly in that order, to make a 28% stock solution. Then dilute that 28% stock solution by adding 48 milliliters of stock to 1 liter of water for a working strength tray solution. Capacity is about 20 8x10 prints, give or take. This is the Kodak SB-1 formula.

Consider using gloves (nitrile, not latex) and eye protection if you have not performed this simple two-step dilution before. As the fumes from undiluted glacial are very pungent and should not be inhaled, perform the first dilution outside on the patio or deck if your darkroom does not have active ventilation. Rinse any accidental spills with copius amounts of water.

Generations of darkroom workers have been doing this without problems for decades. Be thoughtful and careful and you will be just fine.

Ken

 

[michr]

I remember that thread and I recall some of the dismissive responses. I hope the poster didn't leave the forum that day discouraged. For the sake of the niche market that film photography has become, we need all comers. We can't push out people because they don't practice the one true photography. The fortunes of Kodak were not won and lost selling film only to real photographers. Film won't continue to be made if we discourage the young, the experimenters, and the casual enthusiast and dilettante because real photographers don't shoot that much film on their own. So if a teenager wants to make their own enlarger, I want to encourage this person. I want them to feel welcome here. Of course, I also want them to understand the caveats of their approach, but isn't this kind of make-do attitude the antidote to the supposed entitlement that young people are reputed to feel?

 

[DREW WILEY]

Yeah, yeah, Ken.... Take it all for granted. I've seen peoples faces almost burned off. The basement of my own high school chemistry class was blown
up. I know a phD (not in chemistry) who ruined his lungs for life with mere 18% muriatic acid. Don't assume everyone took 101 chemistry.
Yeah, I keep around several gallons of glacial acetic acid. I've also got a huge fan behind my fume hood. I sure as heck wouldn't hand a bottle of that to a beginner! Before they went out of business, Bryant Lab down the street wouldn't hand anything like that to a potential customer without making
absolutely sure they knew what they were doing. There are, after all, people called ambulance chasers who absolutely love to hand out business cards
after miscommunications of this nature.

 

[Ken Nadvornick]

Yeah, yeah, Ken.... Take it all for granted. I've seen peoples faces almost burned off.

No, you haven't...

The basement of my own high school chemistry class was blown up.

No, it wasn't... At least not from the simple room temperature dilution of glacial acetic acid, essentially a concentrated form of white vinegar.

At normal room temperatures this is not even physically possible. Concentrated acetic acid can be ignited only with difficulty. To become a flash (explosive) risk the ambient air temperature must exceed 39C/102F, and the concentration in air must be between 5.4% and 16% — conditions never present during a high school chemistry class. Students would be gagging and struggling to even breathe under those conditions.

I know a phD (not in chemistry) who ruined his lungs for life with mere 18% muriatic acid.

Concentrated vinegar is not hydrochloric acid, at any dilution...

Don't assume everyone took 101 chemistry.

Everyone doesn't need to. These are simple liquid dilutions anyone familiar with photographic darkroom practices can understand and implement. The second dilution produces the very mild Kodak SB-1, which is an even less concentrated dilution than white vinegar. To substitute a vinegar stop bath in a pinch one normally dilutes grocery store kitchen vinegar by half (1+1).

Do you need a chemistry degree to make your salad dressings?

Ken

 

[DREW WILEY]

Every pool cleaner knows that muriatic is dilute hydrocholic, but then they also know it has to be re-diluted dramatically before the kids swim in it.
Or do you think that when you pop a can of Coca Cola it's the same thing as when they pump tank cars of carbonic acid? One will slowly rot your teeth, the other will quickly kill you. So sure, you can use kitchen vinegar as a stop bath - but does that mean you want your lettuce swimming in glacial actetic acid? What did the high school science teacher tell you about dumping concentrated acid into standing water? No. NOT everyone by
a long shot knows this. I don't assume anything. I've seen a helluva lot of artists maim or poison themselves over the years by being undereducated
about chemicals. Quite a few dead ones too. I even known a few research chemists that got too comfortable being around certain chemicals and that
died young. So next time you want to re-inform me of my position, go talk to some emergency med techs first. They have more horror stories than
I do.

 

[Ken Nadvornick]

Every pool cleaner knows that muriatic is dilute hydrocholic, but then they also know it has to be re-diluted dramatically before the kids swim in it. Or do you think that when you pop a can of Coca Cola it's the same thing as when they pump tank cars of carbonic acid?

This little subtopic isn't about cleaning pools with hydrochloric acid or cans of soda or railroad tank cars containing carbonic acid.*

It's about the safe darkroom dilution of acetic acid for photographic purposes...

What did the high school science teacher tell you about dumping concentrated acid into standing water? No. NOT everyone by a long shot knows this.

Apparently including you?

The correct mixing protocol for water dilution of concentrated acids is to always add the acid to the water. ('A' comes before 'W', remember?) That's why I included the phrase "strictly in that order".

The reason is that the dilution process is exothermic, and the generated heat from the poured acid can be absorbed by the larger volume of surrounding water. If the water is added to the acid the initial stream of the pour could be heated sufficiently to cause spattering of the resulting strong acidic solution.

Ken

* Which in an extremely mild form hits you in the face with every raindrop. Google "limestone" and "solution weathering".

 

[removed account4]

maybe i missed something cause i don't understand what HCL has to do with building a low tech enlarger.

im happy that seanE is still here too, we need more people with his enthusiasm on the site.
if people trying to make a pinhole camera out of a oatmeal box got the same amount of
" go to the thrift store and buy a real camera " as he got " buy a cheap enlarger " responses ..
it would be a miracle that pinhole photography would be on this place.

i agree with luckless, squashing someone's "pioneering spirit" is a real bummer.
but unfortunately it is a fact of life no matter the field ...
there are a lot of people who don't bother/ want/ care about/ making something
from scratch, especially when you can just pick up something premade.
and this whole is kind of funny / surreal coming from people here on apug seeing the photographic equivalent
of "remade" is digital photography and making one's own is more like what apug is all about.

of course YMMV

 

[DREW WILEY]

So Ken, you've never seen or heard of acid burn? It doesn't need to be ignited. It's caused by spill, spatter, splash. And you've never known of anyone who had their lungs ruined for life by inhaling the fumes of any number of concentrated acids, even briefly? Don't try to correct me. My office was once surrounded by chemical plants. I've seen it all. And now it's surrounded with biotech and pharmaceutical factories, with their own kinds of overexposure poisonings. And what does any of this have to do with home-made enlargers? Same problem. Assuming someone knows how to do it
safely. Please, please, please don't give your resume to UL.

 

[Ken Nadvornick]

So Ken, you've never seen or heard of acid burn? It doesn't need to be ignited.

It does if what you earlier claimed happened to your high school chemistry class were to be true.

Which it isn't...

Don't try to correct me.

Somebody has to, because thus far the bulk of your hysterical assertions are false, and future APUG searches on the keyword "glacial" will unfortunately turn up this thread. If future readers of your earlier post #45 were to follow your implied instructions, they may very well indeed end up with acid-spattered body parts.

Please stop with the overly dramatic fear-mongering, Drew. Your claims of knowledge are not supported by verified, established, and readily available facts.

Ken

 

[DREW WILEY]

Anyone who isn't afraid of concentrated acids is a fool, plain and simple. Everyone SHOULD be afraid of this stuff. Fear is what keeps you safe. Now
are you going to try and convince me that rattlesnakes make cute and cuddly pets that deserve to sleep on your pillow at night?