Is it embarassing to shoot film?

[Worker 11811]

Seriously! I just wanted to push the guy aside and say, "Move away, Padawan!"

 

[Sirius Glass]

Last Sunday I was taking pictures of a certain monument with my Minolta SrT and an entire bag of photographic gear. No need to say there were many other persons in the vicinity taking pictures with their digi-snaps.

A person with a digital camera approached me and asked me if I would take a picture of him and his woman, which I willingly did.

I think amongst the many present I was "the chosen one" precisely because I was using film and carrying weights with me. That must mean something

I get that a lot too with 35mm Nikon SLR, Hasselblad or Graflex/Graphic 4x5s.

Steve

 

[Roger Cole]

There are some days when I feel a little embarrassed, but really more self-conscious. Last Saturday, for example, I had two 35mm cameras, each with about 3 frames of film remaining so I stopped by a local park to finish each roll. I felt quite self-conscious walking around with two cameras dangling around my neck plus a light meter.

Dave

I can't tell if this is a joke or not.

I positively enjoy walking around like this (sometimes with a TLR and 35mm for my two cameras.)

Of course I pretty much like to stand out, be different, and let my photo-freak flag fly.

 

[Dave in Kansas]

No Roger, I did not intend it as a joke. I often feel self-conscious walking around with multiple cameras around my neck, probably because you seldom see anyone doing that these days. It didn't used to be that uncommon to carry multiple cameras so you could shoot on two different films (like b&w and color) of the same scene. You just don't see it that much now that most people use digital cameras. So I tend to feel a little out of place. And it doesn't help matters any that my wife makes fun of me.

Dave

 

[MattKing]

I often feel self-conscious walking around with multiple cameras around my neck, probably because you seldom see anyone doing that these days. It didn't used to be that uncommon to carry multiple cameras so you could shoot on two different films (like b&w and color) of the same scene. You just don't see it that much now that most people use digital cameras. So I tend to feel a little out of place. And it doesn't help matters any that my wife makes fun of me.

Dave

Just tell them that you were the inspiration for the Dennis Hopper character in "Apocalypse Now":

(I got this from here: Dead Link Removed

 

[BetterSense]

Pros who have NO clue about shutter speed and aperture? "Professional" they're not, regardless of whether they're being paid.

This is nonsense, and there's no reason to look down on them. They are professionals at something, just something different than that-which-used-to-be-known-as-photography. The new imaging world is a digital world with completely different tools and difference skills required. I know I may have skill in the darkroom and with a camera but I have not the slightest clue how to use a modern DSLR or image editing software (not that I couldn't learn).

 

[michaelbsc]

... They are professionals at something, just something different than that-which-used-to-be-known-as-photography.

If they satisfy a customer who is happy to pay them, then they pass the test.

What we often want to put forth as "professionalism" would be more properly termed as journey craftsmanship.

 

[Worker 11811]

I generally agree with you but I believe there is a minimum level of knowledge and understanding that goes into any professional endeavor. Aperture and shutter speed are part of the basics of photography, usually taught in "Photography 101," regardless of whether we're talking digital or traditional.

Even if one never took "Photography 101" this still rises to the level of R.T.F.M! (Read the Freakin' Manual!)

 

[lxdude]

^I agree^. Being familiar with the tool's capabilities is necessary for professional results. I mean, modifying DoF to suit a subject is pretty basic. Sure, if someone makes their living with it they're a "professional", but that doesn't mean they are professional.

 

[Steve Smith]

I believe there is a minimum level of knowledge and understanding that goes into any professional endeavor.

Whilst there should be, there are many making a living in a variety of professions who fall below that level.


Steve.

 

[removed account4]

Don't think I belong here. I figured there would be people enjoying photography. I shoot film. I shoot digital. Instead I read this kind of sneering crap, all the while remembering Neil Liefer and his 9fps 250 exposure backs.

i wouldn't worry about it les
a lot of people shoot both, they just don't
talk about it here on apug ...

 

[markbarendt]

Whilst there should be, there are many making a living in a variety of professions who fall below that level.


Steve.

The only real requirement to being professional is the ability to sell something at a profit.

The only requirement for staying in business is the ability to do that repeatedly.

Notice that neither require any knowledge of photography or any other craft.

 

[Worker 11811]

I can shoot photos, develop the film and produce a print that people like and would want to buy. By the above standard, that is professional.

I know my prints are not perfect. If any of you looked at them, I'm sure you would have several criticisms and some would think they are not good enough to be professional.

However, I understand that and I try to improve my work. Maybe I'll never be perfect but it is the quest for improvement which I believe sets a true professional apart from the crowd.

Sure, when somebody goes out into the world with a digicam and produces things that people want to buy he might be considered professional but the lack of understanding of basic photography and the seeming unwillingness to learn or even read beyond the "Quick Start" page of the equipment manual drops him several notches on the totem pole, as far as I am concerned.

 

[halldaniel21]

Both digital and film based cameras have their pros and cons. While on a digital camera you can upload the picture or delete in case of any error. You don’t have that facility in a film camera. But when it comes to quality there are a lot of things which can get in a film camera which may not appear well on digital camera. It’s not embarrassing but people are a bit doubtful why the guy is using old tech when we got latest tech.

 

[EricO]

I don't get embarrassed but I get annoyed with the comments from people who think they know photography. One person kept telling me how nice it was that he was shooting digital and that I should get on and... on and on. Then I realized that what he was raving about was a point and shoot. I thought, "if it's so great then why are all these people buying digital SLR's and multiple lenses?"

Then there's the discussion that goes like this. I can email my photos off to friends the next day and... Then I tell them when I want a quick turn around of snapshots I drop the roll off to the drugstore and have a disk DVD made and then I can also email the pics to friends the next day. The only difference is is that with digital you can email the pics out within the hour and I may have to wait an hour or two. Yet, who's in a rush to get pics within an hour. Besides, the recipient may not get a chance to view them until the next day or two.

I try not to engage in such silly discussions because I know that to replace all the pro equipment that I have with digital would be very costly.

 

[EricO]

Here's another thought. I sometimes tell them that the digital camera (body alone) that I would want to replace my equipment costs $41,000. I don't even have $5000 to put on another camera when I'm totally satisfied with the equipment that I have. Besides, I don't see all of the inconveniences that you're telling me that I supposed to be having. Yeah, when when I want to do my own editing I get a disc made.

 

[Worker 11811]

The thing that bugs me the most is that people assume, because I am shooting with film, that I can't use digital when the truth is that I could probably make a better image using a sharp stick on a clay tablet than they can with the latest digital, whiz-bang gadgetry.

I don't use digital but I could if I wanted to. I just don't want to.

Eric, I've said similar things to people. I show them the camera I bought at a rummage sale for $20 then tell them that a comparable digital camera would cost several thousand dollars. ("Comparable" being a relative term.)

As far as the time question is concerned, I think it is a non-issue.
Right now, I have my darkroom all set up to produce. I've got all my stock chemistry mixed and ready to use. I'm in the basement where it's cool, so everything is already at the right temperature. (Yesterday, I literally poured and developed. Everything was a perfect 68º!)

I can literally walk in the door, develop the film and have it ready to print or scan in about two hours, including drying time.
All right, the film is still a little bit green but I can use it. I prefer to let film dry overnight.

I have tanks to develop four rolls at a time. That's between 140 to 145 images, depending on whether you roll your own or use factory loads.

Basically, a half-decent film photographer can shoot and develop film just about as fast as your average digi-snapper can Photoshop his pictures.

I said it before, society is "dumbing down." Digital photography is just making people go downhill faster.

 

[EricO]

If I bride came to me with 20 rolls of black and white and said "shoot with this", I would have definitely lost that job... right after I'd kissed her on the lips!

<SNIP SNIP>

The majority of clients wont want film. Some will. I had a wedding a few years back and the girl bought me 20 rolls of black and white film and wanted it shot on that. No digital at all. That's rare.

<SNIP SNIP>

QUOTE]

 

[removed account4]

maybe they are "embarrassed" because
9 out of 10 filmies harass them for using diggital,
just like over the years 9 out of 10 diggis harass filmies for not using the latest technology ...

so they make it seem that they are "embarrassed" so they don't have to deal ...

 

[Sirius Glass]

the sad reality is there are zealots on both sides of the street ... :munch:​

But the zealots on my side of the street are better than the zealots on the other side of the street!

 

[markbarendt]

Sure, when somebody goes out into the world with a digicam and produces things that people want to buy he might be considered professional but the lack of understanding of basic photography and the seeming unwillingness to learn or even read beyond the "Quick Start" page of the equipment manual drops him several notches on the totem pole, as far as I am concerned.

I agree, with regard to the photographic "craft", that success can be measured in the technical qualities of the print.

That is not how businesses communities keep score. Money is the only measure that counts.

Art is like business in that if a certain style "gets the job done"; it's just right, regardless of the technical flaws.

The technical skills of photography; exposure, posing, lighting, developing, printing, et al, are simply incidental (or to be vulgar, blue collar/craftsperson) considerations to a business.

Studio work for example, is truly just an assembly line. Each setup, once designed is fully repeatable and consists of a set of rules that can be taught to most anyone.

Successful photographers of every genre design systems to make getting a particular result easier, the Zone system fully qualifies here.

The important business (or to be vulgar again, white collar) considerations are in the design of a salable product, in developing it's market, in developing systems to produce and sell the product reliably, and in maximizing profit.

This isn't to say that skil in the craft itself is unimportant, just that in business it is incidental and replaceable and subordinate to the real goal of making money.

 

[moose10101]

Then there's the discussion that goes like this. I can email my photos off to friends the next day and... Then I tell them when I want a quick turn around of snapshots I drop the roll off to the drugstore and have a disk DVD made and then I can also email the pics to friends the next day. The only difference is is that with digital you can email the pics out within the hour and I may have to wait an hour or two.

The other difference would be that the other guy doesn't have to pay for processing.

 

[Klainmeister]

I agree, with regard to the photographic "craft", that success can be measured in the technical qualities of the print.

That is not how businesses communities keep score. Money is the only measure that counts.

Art is like business in that if a certain style "gets the job done"; it's just right, regardless of the technical flaws.

The technical skills of photography; exposure, posing, lighting, developing, printing, et al, are simply incidental (or to be vulgar, blue collar/craftsperson) considerations to a business.

Studio work for example, is truly just an assembly line. Each setup, once designed is fully repeatable and consists of a set of rules that can be taught to most anyone.

Successful photographers of every genre design systems to make getting a particular result easier, the Zone system fully qualifies here.

The important business (or to be vulgar again, white collar) considerations are in the design of a salable product, in developing it's market, in developing systems to produce and sell the product reliably, and in maximizing profit.

This isn't to say that skil in the craft itself is unimportant, just that in business it is incidental and replaceable and subordinate to the real goal of making money.

This is one of the most lucid and accurate posts I have seen in a while. Thank you.

 

[Worker 11811]

That is not how businesses communities keep score. Money is the only measure that counts.

Art is like business in that if a certain style "gets the job done"; it's just right, regardless of the technical flaws.

Personally, I probably would have never wasted the film to take a picture of the tall ship that I was talking about last week but I did it because I thought I could sell it. I shopped it around and one gallery did take it. I did it because it will make money. I hope I can sell a thousand of those before I'm through.

But there's something else...

There were, probably, a dozen people on that pier taking pictures of the same ship. Everybody but me had digicams and I am the one who is getting his photograph to sell. Why is that? It's because of attention to detail.

I made sure the exposure was right, or at least as well as I could make it. I printed it as well as I know how. You can count the planks in the side of the ship. In future prints, I hope to make it even better.

Maybe a studio is just an assembly line but, assuming you're not running a franchise operation, you need to know how to set up the equipment in the first place and you need to develop a workflow to produce a good product, even if that product is only good enough that people simply pay for it.

What about unforeseen or unpredictable situations? What if some woman comes in demanding that you photograph her in an all black, floor length dress? Do you know enough about your camera to make it expose that subject correctly? Do you simply trust the automatic exposure system in your camera? Wouldn't the prudent professional shoot a few shots on automatic then shoot a few on manual just to cover his ass? I do things like that a lot.

Professionalism isn't simply about producing a salable product and it isn't simply investment in a craft. It's about understanding your business as well as you know how. One uses his knowledge to produce his product. What one doesn't know, he makes an effort to learn.

A professional photographer of any sort who doesn't doesn't understand ƒ-stops is like a race car driver who doesn't understand what a clutch is. Sure, you can teach a driver to look at the the tachometer then step on the little pedal and move the handle when the little needle gets up to the red line but he's not going to win many races unless he has a basic understanding of how his engine works.

 

[Diapositivo]

Those kind of professional have a "white dress" program and a "black dress" program in their camera. They know that when they use the "black dress" program with a black dress, they get it more or less right. It's no surprise they have clients, there's also plenty of divorced marriage counselors who have clients