Is it crazy to buy film retail here?

johnnywalker said:

I know the smaller markets and fewer economies of scale outside of the US play a role in the higher prices, and import duties and taxes, but there has to be more to this story than greedy manufacturers and middlemen. You'd think there would be a price war evolve eventually!

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I'm waiting...patiently...

This sort of extortionism has finally hit the news here in Oz. Not for photography as such, but everything. Clothes, tools, furniture etc. Australians are finally realising that they have been paying prices that are way too high compared to the rest of the world. The media are saying that it's not so much the retailers as the wholesalers who are ripping off the public.
Mike

An interesting article here about the Great Australian Gouge:

http://www.crikey.com.au/2011/05/09/online-retailing-the-great-australian-gouge/

Cheers, Peter.

An interesting anecdote, Australian pears are on sale at the grocery store here in Canada, for $1 per pound. Makes you really wonder about freight rates in the world. Out of curiosity, what are Packham pears selling for in their home country?

Good article that on Crikey. For another blatant example: you can buy a KitchenAid Artisan mixer for USD220 in the USA but they're AUD700-800 (USD760-870) in Australia. I managed to buy the larger model (Pro600; not available in AU), pay its entire value all over again in 5-day air-courier costs and a transformer and still I have it in my kitchen and running for $300 (37%) less than the locally-sold models with half the power. You can't tell me someone isn't profiteering pretty heavily there.

Pears are about $2-3/kg (USD0.80-1.20/lb) here in supermarkets (growers/exporters get a bit under half of that) at the moment. They're right in-season now so easier to sell cheap than pay for cold storage and pears keep poorly anyway. Surface freight is insanely cheap, a few cents per kg once you're moving a few fruit bins (palettes) at a time.

the article doesn't address the reasons why things are so expensive!

my take on it is basically due to the fact that we are in such a geographically remote location and it's because of this that the distribution channels into Australia are so limited. This allows the big players to easily control the market to their advantage.

It's not so much that the retailers are unwilling to drop the prices (although that plays a part too), but rather that the prices they are getting their products at are already inflated.. which is something out of their control since they just don't have many alternative choices available to them.

Shipping costs is a (no offense intended) crap argument. The fact that I can get individual items couriered to me (I pay $140 for a mixer in courier costs whereas a distributor would pay about $15 each by bringing 20 of them over on a palette) cheaper than I can buy them would indicate that shipping is not a factor. And of course I'm paying full-retail in my US/UK transactions, not the wholesale price.

Certainly I agree that the importers/distributors are the major problem, not the retailers. I don't understand though why a retailer wouldn't do exactly what I do and directly import. They must be moving much greater quantities than I consume (I am just one amateur), and I can buy (including shipping!) stuff like film for less than Kennedy's sells it; even a small retailer should be able to negotiate better wholesale pricing and shipping terms than I can.

I just picked up a couple of pairs of Levis 501s here in TH from the Levis store. Have bought several pairs over the past few years, and incredibly, I picked up 3 pairs for slightly more than 1 pair in AU.

The scary thing is, these were imported and the AU ones are Made In Australia.

My local store in ADL used to get in some special order film for me - no they didn't go through the distributor, they actually ordered online and charged me slightly more. When they gave me the example prices, I almost died - thankfully they were more than willing to get it in for me, minus the middle man.

polyglot said:

.... I don't understand though why a retailer wouldn't do exactly what I do and directly import.....

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The retailers are probably being hamstrung by written supply agreements with the wholesalers/distributors. If the wholesaler finds out that the retailer is "back-dooring" him by importing directly he will probably cut off all supply to the retailer.

I'm always wondering too and buy lots from O/S as its always cheaper. As an add on to this discussion the Polaroid Australia Flickr group has been puzzled to cost variances too here http://www.flickr.com/groups/polaroid_aus/discuss/72157626682858229/ which also wonders why local sellers are so slow to ship things.
A friend of mine bought a fish finder online from an Oz chain. It took them 2 weeks to get it to him compared to if he drove 30 mins to their store and bought it (it was in stock). I'm sure he could have bought the same item online for less $ and had it on his door in alot less that 2 weeks.

wotalegend said:

The retailers are probably being hamstrung by written supply agreements with the wholesalers/distributors. If the wholesaler finds out that the retailer is "back-dooring" him by importing directly he will probably cut off all supply to the retailer.

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Thats my understanding as well. I know of someone who has told me exactly the same - I.E., they would possibly do it to get something, but it would have to be hush hush for the above reason.

wotalegend said:

The retailers are probably being hamstrung by written supply agreements with the wholesalers/distributors. If the wholesaler finds out that the retailer is "back-dooring" him by importing directly he will probably cut off all supply to the retailer.

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Yeah.. this is much exactly spot on!
When you have a distributor that owns the distribution rights in Australia to a large range of products then you pretty much have to do play by their book.

Plus it is not really manageable when you are a small retailer trying to manage your own importation especially when you have hundreds of different products it becomes highly impractical.

wotalegend said:

The retailers are probably being hamstrung by written supply agreements with the wholesalers/distributors. If the wholesaler finds out that the retailer is "back-dooring" him by importing directly he will probably cut off all supply to the retailer.

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I suspect you're right, though I don't know how well that fits with our otherwise-most-excellent competition laws.

vcyoo: I agree that if a shop wants to manage the importation as well as retail that there is a lot more work so you trade the lower cost of goods for a much higher operating cost. However, I note that this approach has worked quite well in the computer market though they undoubtedly have much higher turnover and very short stock churn compared to an analogue store.

Ross Chambers said:

Where's that Vanbar guy that responds to questions like this?

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That's me! I Only check in periodically, and I must apologise as I haven't read the whole thread.

The long and short of it is this :

The retailers aren't making huge margains on film / chem. We don't buy Velvia for $5 and sell it for $27.

The Australian distributors sell the goods to retailers at prices which they set, or have handed down by whomever.

If the cost to the local distributors was less then the retail price would come down.

Currently, as someone else put it, big photographic companies only like certain parts of what we call 'Free Market Economics'. This means that since Australia is a small market we effectively pay more.

Do I agree? No.

Do local retailers have the ability to change the situation? No.

The real shame of this whole situation is the 'vicious-cycle' aspect.

Customers stop buying as much film-stock via Australian channel.
Australian channel sees reduced demand, increases price / stops keeping that line.

The issue here is, the Australian distributor isn't seeing the whole picture. They aren't aware of the demand for their product as customers are purchasing via a different channel.

The other channel (US/HK) sees steady demand and prices remain in check.

This is all my personal opinion, and shouldn't be confused with an official 'statement' or other formal message.

Just another example: I need some Provia 100F (35mm) for the coming weekend. Local offer in Melbourne: 137 AUD for a pack of 5 films. B&H price: 33.35 USD (= 31.44 AUD). That's 4.4 times the US price. Absolutely insane! I did not buy. I will shoot roll film instead over the weekend and order 35mm film from the US as usual.

Sirius Glass said:

munz6869 said:

Yes it is. I just added up all the costs of buying my annual order of film:

4 boxes 4x5" TXP-320, 5 boxes 4x5" Portra 160, 5 boxes 120 Portra 160
Freestyle: (incl postage and overseas transaction fees) AU$573.22
The exchange rates were rather good that week - about $1.08

Local Retailer: (if I just walk there and pickup) AU$826.21

All up I've saved AU$252.99, EVEN WITH POSTAGE & TRANSACTION FEES!!!!

To me this is just extraordinary :confused: - TXP320 is not much dearer here (AU$6 dearer), but a pro pack of Portra 160 is more than double the price!!!

Ordering Kodak film from the US, it's probably fresher, too...

Marc!

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If you feel guilty, send the AU$826.21 to me and I will buy the film and ship it to you. That way you will get the same products and still stimulate the economy. I would just have to take a "hit" for the team!

Steve

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What no response?? I thought that you guys would be all over me jumping at this offer!

Can we talk? What about a slight discount for my work? I see a great business model here. What do you think? Maybe my costs plus 25% profit? Lets make a deal! You know, something you can live with and something I can retire on.

Steve

Joachim_I said:

Just another example: I need some Provia 100F (35mm) for the coming weekend. Local offer in Melbourne: 137 AUD for a pack of 5 films. B&H price: 33.35 USD (= 31.44 AUD). That's 4.4 times the US price. Absolutely insane! I did not buy. I will shoot roll film instead over the weekend and order 35mm film from the US as usual.

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that is insanity.
I saw on the internet some people in sydney wanted to by some fuji neopan 100, in some shop in the CBD they bought it for $25 for a 36exp roll! bh sells for ~3.50.

Ten years ago I really tried to support Australian retailers and buy all my film stock here. Even then it was cheaper to buy from B&H. I went to one very well known film retailer to try and and discuss the situation and see if there was a solution. They were immediately rude to me and basically told me to p... o.. This retailer no longer sells any film.

In the 90's I bought all my Schneider large format lenses through the our agent - CR Kennedy - at higher prices than Robert White, Badger Graphics and B&H. An 80mm SS XL that I bought was faulty. I took it back to the local agent who refused to help me, charged me for repairs even though the lens was still under warrenty, and who never fixed the fault. I took the issue up with Schneider directly in Germany. They immediately apologised saying the fault was a manufacturing one. They replaced the lens free of charge, and gave me a free $400 loupe as a gift for my problems. CR Kennedy never refunded my money for the non-existent repairs they charged me for.

Since then I have bought 100% from overseas without a hitch, saving a fortune, and getting perfect service. I bought a Toho camera from Badger Graphics which had a minor manufacturing fault. Upon emailing them they organised for me to send the camera directly to Japan where the camera was fixed free of charge. I have had to send a couple of items back to B&H (ie, warped dark slides) who have accepted them back with hardly a question, with a full refund. I have to pay the return freight, but in the end I am well ahead.

I am also professional in this industry for decades. Until ten years ago I bought 100% in Australia. Now I spend nothing. If I go to an Australia retailer they more often than not will not have the item in stock and tell me to wait a couple of weeks. I go online to B&H and it is on my doorstep in as little as 3 days. Once I bought a lens from Hong Kong and the courier was knocking on my door the next morning!

I spend well over $10000 a year overseas on photographic items, and I am just one of thousands of professionals. Even little things, ie a set of inkjet cartridges for a common Epson R2400 printer. It is impossible to buy a set of these cartridges from any Aussie retailer. So for every order I put into B&H I add small items such as this, and I get them at almost HALF the price and freight free! ($14US / $23AUD per cartridge. This saves me almost a couple of thousand a year alone)

I notice local prices have not come down even though the Australian dollar is now high. I have no idea how Aussie photographic retailers now compete - but they lost the war ten years ago

I had a similar experience with CR Kennedy, the local Bowens distributor. I needed to pick up a couple of Pulsar transmitters for my lighting kit - and you needed to purchase 2.

Q: Do they come as a 2 pack?
A: Definitely not! They are only sold as single components!

So I buy two - $700. Lo and behold 2 weeks after purchasing, my local store has twin packs for sale from the very same distributor at $595!!!! (Note I couldn't get the original purchase from these guys, as CR didn't have stock in ADL. They had to come from MEL.)

P*****?? Yet bet! Since then I've *never* purchased any item that CR imports - I'd be happy for them to go under with their lackadaisical "couldn't give a **** about your business" attitude.

I order from OS or get my local ADL supplier to order in from OS for me when I'm in town - if the local distributors want to charge 4x more, good for them; they just won't be getting my business any time soon.

I suspect that B&H sells more film and paper than all the distributors Canada and Australia combined. I suppose this means the prices should be cheaper there. It is a vicious cycle as you say but in this modern age of global economies, easy access to information about mail order products and rapid courier shipping it really boggles the mind as to why the distributors continue like this. A business model has been lost in time somewhere and sorely needs to evolve as the exclusive distributor/retailer channel relationship is broken by international web site ordering.

hpulley said:

I suspect that B&H sells more film and paper than all the distributors Canada and Australia combined. I suppose this means the prices should be cheaper there. It is a vicious cycle as you say but in this modern age of global economies, easy access to information about mail order products and rapid courier shipping it really boggles the mind as to why the distributors continue like this. A business model has been lost in time somewhere and sorely needs to evolve as the exclusive distributor/retailer channel relationship is broken by international web site ordering.

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Agree completely. It's a suicidal policy for old multi-line distributors(less so camera distributors)here in Canada. Then there's film pricing that burns me, Harry and the rest of the Canadian crew, especially when the Canadian $ is worth more than the US$.

A good chunk of the price differences in Canada is the result of the govt's insistence on bilingual packaging.

Bob-D659 said:

A good chunk of the price differences in Canada is the result of the govt's insistence on bilingual packaging.

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Too bad that our (Australian) retailers can't use that excuse.

It's pretty clear that here it's the importer/distributor that is 90% to blame, they're greedy and not in touch with recent trends. Retailers could be more proactive but they're too worried about upsetting their distributor.

Bob-D659 said:

A good chunk of the price differences in Canada is the result of the govt's insistence on bilingual packaging.

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Pull the other one, mate. B&H sells Portra 400 120 for US$4.89; Silvano in TO sells it for C$7.19. Doubtful bilingual wrappers contribute as much as greed to the higher prices.

Ilford boxes are multilingual but are priced higher here. Same for Fuji, Kodak...