Is it a lith paper? What does a 'non-responsive-to-lith' paper look like?

[mooseontheloose]

This may seem like a weird question. I've been dabbling in lith for the past year and a half (is that all?!) and I'm pretty good at spotting a lith print when I see one. However, the other night I was experimenting with a 'new' paper (some Fuji Fujibro RC paper I got while in Japan) to see if it would lith. I already did the drop of solution B test to make sure there was no accelerator present (there wasn't).

Anyway, I was doing this in conjunction with some Foma MG 132 (my favorite) in Moersch SE5 1+20 dilution (plus D additive). The Foma came up in 4-5 minutes, but the Fujibro took much longer -- 17 minutes. It did appear to me that some infectious development occurred -- the blacks definitely came up first, it's more 'gritty' and has a very weak colour response. Which prompted the question -- is this what non-lithable papers look like in lith? Or does something different happen? The only other paper I've tried is Ilford Multigrade Warmtone and it's response is much different than what happened with the Fujibro. Unfortunately, all the papers I have in my freezer are lith papers, other than Ilford RC postcard paper, so I can't really experiment with other papers to see if the response is similar.

I've re-looked at Tim Rudman's books but they are mostly about what papers are suitable for lith and how they look, not how unsuitable papers look in lith. This may seem like an obvious question, but it's one I'm not quite sure what the answer is.

FWIW, I know there's a lot more experimenting I could do with the Fujibro to see if it would have a different response to different lith processes.

I'm attaching three examples here. Unfortunately my scanner could not capture the subtle colours in the 'lith' prints so I've had to adjust them the best I can -- not sure how successful I was. They definitely have a warmtone or very light sepia colour to them. (Looking at them again I could not get the colour right for the third print. It should be slightly warmer looking).

The first picture is of the normal B&W print. The second was exposed for 1 minute (about 2 stops overexposed) and developed for 17 minutes. The third was a test strip exposed at 2/2.5/3 minutes and developed for 17.5 minutes.

 

[Jerevan]

An observation, and not an answer here, I am only a beginner - but:

I am now thinking, from experience, that bromide papers are more prone to grain and rather slow compared to other papers. In that case, that would be why you get longer development times on Fujibro compared to the Fomatone. What non-lithable papers look like I don't know, so I am letting the real experts answer your questions.

 

[Pete H]

I've had similar experiences with Fomabrom and SE5. I think you need to change the dilutions quite a lot, and and greatly reduce or leave out the D (I believe it is KBr). Usually bromide papers come out cooler in lith than other papers, but you should still get the gritty appearance, as indeed you have.

Pete

 

[laparn]

The paper is truly lithable from what can be seen. I have tried a non lithable paper and know the result and this is far from. I once (only once...) tried to develop Kentmere Fineprint Fb (non-warmtone!..since that will lith well) in Maco LP Superlith and the result was, firstly, exhasuting but also very poor. After 30 minutes agitation I spotted a vague grey tint but not "infectious" at all. I reckon there was no end destination and I stopped after 45 minutes...

I also concur with the previous writers. Try else dilution and I believe you´d cut development times pretty much and get nice results from Fujibro. Cool name btw!
This is most likely a high bromide paper with slow response and restrainer such as Lith D or KBr will not do the trick. Try SE5 @ 1:10 and see what response you get. Too quick => dilute. Adding Lith D will most likely just move the point closer to when pepper fogging occur so slowing down this paper will probably benefit from dilution adjustment.

Or, stay with the same dilution and heat the developer instead. Higher temperatures do miracles in regards of cutting developent times. I reckon your same dilution you mention will at least half the development times with Fujibro if raising temperature to >40C (104F).
For referece: I develop Fomatone in 1.5 minutes in Easylith 1:40 @ 40C and around 4-5 minutes @25C (77F). So I see a relation to the SE5 times you mention and conclude what will/might happen with Fujibro and higher temperatures.

Pretty exciting stuff, hah? Finding "new" lithable papers is like opening a newly discovered Cheops...hehe. Please post your new findings!

 

[mooseontheloose]

laparn -- I'm definitely going to try it in some hot lith and a more normal A+B dilution. I used to do Easy Lith 1+30 at 30 C or higher when I was France, but that was mostly to cope with the very cold darkroom I was working in, although it also had the benefit of producing nice colours as well. Now that I have my own darkroom I've been trying different dilutions and combinations for different effects.

This past weekend I was just working on the Foma prints, but thought I would do a test run of the Fujibro to see what would happen. At the time I wasn't very impressed, but then realized it might actually be a lithable paper once I compared it to the normal black and white print. Unfortunately there isn't a lot of information available about this paper in English, and it's not available anywhere online (as far as I can tell), although it's quite easy to find in the shops in Japan -- it's a graded paper (I've got grades 2 and 3 in my freezer), and single weight (I think). The surface is quite smooth.

 

[MattKing]

Rachelle:

Why don't you try pm'ing or emailing Tim Rudman with a link to this thread? This sounds like the sort of question he might like to address.

Matt

 

[mooseontheloose]

Matt -- funny you mentioned that, I was thinking about it myself and then read your post. In any event, pm sent.

 

[Rich Ullsmith]

Before I started that part B test, like the one you did, the failures all looked a little (or a lot) different. Most commonly, flat with no contrast, no infectious development, no blacks. I remember with the newer Oriental multigraded fiber, it looked like snowflakes all over the paper.

It's nice you found a rc paper that liths! Now to find a way to cut down that 17 minutes . . .

 

[mooseontheloose]

I've received feedback from Tim about the paper, here's a copy of his message:

Dear Rachelle,

This does look interesting.
It certainly seems to lith well, judging from your scans, although I would be a little cautious about interpreting a scan on screen.
I sense you are not happy with the 17 minutes dev time I suggest you leave out the restrainer you used as this would extend or even double dev times, depending how much you used.
As has been suggested too warming up the dev towards 30C will also shorten dev time significantly and it is possible to go up to 40C even, although this could have other effects too (I don't know Fujiibro).

The 3rd image test strip is much colder because it is a very much later snatch point and the silver grains have grown much larger = colder in tone. This is clearly evident in the shadows. So the extra exposure will allow you to snatch at a shorter dev time than 17 minutes, but will give you a lower contrast print. Your snatch should always be by eye rather than clock.

I have never seen this paper and would be interested to know more.

I have just updated my lith materials booklet for November and this will go out in the next few days in my mailing list newsletter, so I will include a mention of this paper and see if I get any feedback, as the newsletter goes all over the world someone else out there might have experience they will share.

Thank you Rachelle
Please feel free to post this back on APUG too.
Tim

I hope to do some more experimenting and will post my results as soon as I can.

 

[laparn]

Splendid!

Tim is really a great lad and sending your findings of Fujibro for review to other members of his "Materials update" is really a great initiative. Serious! And this is another fine benefit of forums like APUG where sharing is winning rather than just keeping discoveries by your own. Thanks Rachelle.

Hope we get more info about it and see if it is possible to get hands on. It is available in Japan as far as I understand a previous reply. Right? Have you found it online somewhere as well?
/Per

 

[mooseontheloose]

Per,

When I went to Japan I came across the Fujibro paper in all the big camera shops like Yodobashi and Bic Camera. The 'mothership' Yodobashi in Tokyo was very unhelpful in terms of showing me examples of the paper (they have it for everything else -- Foma, Ilford, Bergger, etc. that they have in stock), but I think it was in Osaka that they had a little photo album of all the Fuji papers, so I was able to get a sense of what they looked like. As I have mentioned above, it seems like a single-weight paper, but I have since found out that it is medium-weight. That being said, it seems a little thin to me, but maybe that's just in comparison to the Ilford papers, the only RC paper I have ever used. It lies incredibly flat on the easel under the enlarger, but curls up slightly when dry.

However, I could not find the paper on their websites (granted, I have very limited Japanese skills). Japan Exposures (Megaperls) also does not carry it, although they carry the Fuji Rembrandt paper (the boxes look exactly alike). I wanted to find out more information about it since I had never heard of it before, but really couldn't find anything. A query here led me to the Fuji information about it: (there was a url link here which no longer exists), but it's all in Japanese. A search on the internet only found examples of people using it, mostly those living in Japan. As far as I know, no one has tried it for lith.

I didn't buy a lot of this paper when I was in Japan since I needed to bring it back in my carry-on (and believe me, a lot of airlines are weighing bags now!) so I don't have a whole lot to experiment with, but I'm going to try some different dilutions and temperatures and see what happens. I am really excited about trying a 'new' lithable paper, but I feel a lot of pressure to come up with something good. I'm definitely no Tim Rudman -- I've never tried any bleach or redevelopment in lith, nor I have really toned any of my prints. But it looks like it will come up 'lithy' in normal lith dilutions, so we'll see how that goes.

 

[mooseontheloose]

I've started a new thread to post the results of my tests with this paper:

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)