• Welcome to Photrio!
    Registration is fast and free. Join today to unlock search, see fewer ads, and access all forum features.
    Click here to sign up

Is Fomadon R09 the Same as Rodinal?

StoneNYC

Member
Allowing Ads
Joined
Aug 5, 2012
Messages
8,345
Location
Antarctica
Format
8x10 Format

How do you even know they don't flush it? That video? Is that your only source?

Also, are you sure the Adonal formula isn't just better at lasting longer?

This is all irrelevant since you obviously haven't actually don't the testing to see if it lasts longer or not, have you aged both R09 and Adonal together in a controlled environment? Have you done the testing of aging after oxygen exposure in a controlled environment using scientific equipment to measure levels of chemical as well as processing film with the aged developer and comparing results of both? I doubt it...
 
  • Deleted member 2924
  • Deleted
  • Deleted member 2924
  • Deleted

StoneNYC

Member
Allowing Ads
Joined
Aug 5, 2012
Messages
8,345
Location
Antarctica
Format
8x10 Format

EDIT: I went to check my two bottles that I have that I never even opened, I opened one and low and behold there is no seal, I really thought there was a seal I remembered one, but apparently not. The developer has been sitting for a few months at this point. It is not quite a light pink but a deeper pink at this point, but no crystals have formed at the bottom.

I wonder if my last bottle was the older Adonal before they closed the other factory, hmmm, well my empty could be off, either way it will be interesting to see what happens in 10 years
 
Last edited by a moderator:

miha

Member
Allowing Ads
Joined
Feb 15, 2007
Messages
3,045
Location
Slovenia
Format
Multi Format
What I'm trying to convey is a correct practice at Tetenal, Kodak, Ilford, Bka, you name it, regarding the packaging of developer.
All these firms package their developer with an air-tight seal on the bottle neck.

I don't want to split hairs, bur Kodak chemistry available in round plastic bottles, like their T-Max developer, isn't sealed anymore. Their older square bottles were. I still have some bottles of Kodak stop bath around that are sealed, also their T-Max fixer, only available in Europe, was sealed. Ilford is sealed, so is Tetenal as you say.
 
  • Deleted member 2924
  • Deleted

Xmas

Member
Allowing Ads
Joined
Sep 4, 2006
Messages
6,398
Location
UK
Format
35mm RF
Amazing dialogue in this thread try the horses mouth in this one.

Dead Link Removed

The p-aminophenol in lye cocktail keeps cause of its chemistry not cause of its glass bottle. Others like POTA will go off as it cools down cause of its chemistry.

You need to look after it cause it is drain cleaner.

If the supplier has used any of the generic recepies it is a Rodinal clone same time same temp see link above

Apparently Agfa included potassium bromide in the post 2004 cocktail & that may reduce base fog with some films but never seen much fog pre 2000.

If I have old film I do add KBr...

I always use rubber gloves cause I have skin problems and have done organic chemistry at Uni.

The p-aminophenols in lye will work when they are like Turkish coffee.
 

StoneNYC

Member
Allowing Ads
Joined
Aug 5, 2012
Messages
8,345
Location
Antarctica
Format
8x10 Format
Kodak chemistry now is made by Tetenal and it's all sealed, at least the developer.
Tetenal seals all their chemistry, stop, fixer, all.

Have you ever squeezed all the air out of an ilford chemistry bottle before that's 2/3rds full? Within a few days the bottle is filled with air... All those plastic bottles, even from "the best" (in my opinion) B&W film company that exists, the plastic still is so porous it allows air in easily. None if this is relevant... Let's do testing instead of supposing...
 
  • Deleted member 2924
  • Deleted

AgX

Member
Allowing Ads
Joined
Apr 5, 2007
Messages
29,972
Location
Germany
Format
Multi Format



In the EU the regulation on Safety Data Sheets refers "substances in a mixture", not to substances to make a mixture of.

Thus a reaction between substances and a resulting occurrance of other substances or a change of concentration of the primary substances is taken into account.
 

dorff

Member
Allowing Ads
Joined
May 31, 2011
Messages
443
Location
South Africa
Format
Multi Format

Yes, you are correct. In this case, the manufacturer may argue that the hydroxide is still the worst of the potential chemicals in the mixture, and the p-aminophenol is going to revert to the form dictated by pH whenever ingested or absorbed, i.e. phenolate at high pH, phenol or phenol hydrochloride (or similar) at low pH (for instance in the stomach). So whether it is listed as p-aminophenol or potassium para-aminophenolate is much of a muchness. In other cases, not stating the final composition on the MSDS may be much more problematic.

I have proven (to myself at least) that it makes no difference in which form the aminophenol, sulphite and hydroxide are introduced as long as potassium to sodium is at least 1:2 (33%) on molar ratio (to attain full solubility). So one has the following options:
For aminophenol: Plain 4-aminophenol, paracetamol (aka acetaminophen, branded Tylenol), 4-aminophenol hydrochloride (aka hydroxyanilinium chloride), metol (aka Elon) etc. The important factor is that at high pH the functional group must be displaced to give the 4-aminophenolate salt along with the salt formed by the functional group itself (eg acetate for paracetamol). This latter salt travels along as non-paying passenger.
For hydroxide: Either potassium or sodium. I am sure caesium or lithium will also work, if you want to try .
For sulphite: Either sulphite or metabisulphite. If sodium hydroxide is used, then sulphite MUST be potassium version. All potassium is no problem, but all sodium will FAIL. For metabisulphite, additional hydroxide is needed. One can think of metabisulphite as "compact" sulphite which is "expanded" by the hydroxide. The worst case that will still work is sodium hydroxide with potassium metabisulphite, as it gives very close to the 1:2 ratio of K:Na.

A typical final composition needs to contain:
0.5 mol/L 4-aminophenolate
1.1 mol/L hydroxide
1.58 mol/L sulphite
<3.2 mol/L sodium (4.76 total K + Na is typical if paracetamol is used)
Part of the sodium/potassium content will be in the form of acetate, chloride or sulphate, in a 1:1 molar ratio with the aminophenolate, unless pure aminophenol is used rather than one of its derivatives.

I created a calculator to help those who want to play around with making their own developer. The final product will essentially give Rodinal results, and is long-lived. Paracetamol does not oxidise immediately, as it takes anything from a few hours to days for it to convert it to the aminophenolate. For that reason, it makes a very clear developer with no crystal formation when it cools down. There are formulas that end up with 0.4 mol/L aminophenolate, that use sodium sulphite and sodium hydroxide. This produces a developer with much inferior keeping properties, and which is plagued by excessive crystallisation.

Link to calculator:
(there was a url link here which no longer exists)
 

Gerald C Koch

Member
Allowing Ads
Joined
Jul 12, 2010
Messages
8,131
Location
Southern USA
Format
Multi Format

If, as you say, the regulation in the EU is different then that is certainly an improvement. However the MSDS for Adonal dated 21.6.2010 still states what is mixed together to produce the developer. "Description: Mixture of the substances listed below with harmless additions." Was the regulation changed after the publication date for the developer?

http://www.adox.de/ADOX_ADONAL(E).pdf
 
Last edited by a moderator:

AgX

Member
Allowing Ads
Joined
Apr 5, 2007
Messages
29,972
Location
Germany
Format
Multi Format
I assume the wording "substance(-s) in a mixture" was usded in the regulation from the beginning.

The wording "mixture of the substances listed below" used by Adox is indeed ambiguous, it has both meanings we discussed above.


The samples given in the official guideline use the term "ingredients" followed by a listing of the substances contained in a mixture.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Roger Cole

Member
Allowing Ads
Joined
Jan 20, 2011
Messages
6,069
Location
Atlanta GA
Format
Multi Format

Well it isn't the plastic of the bottle, it's the fit of the cap to bottle. Otherwise it wouldn't keep before opening either, which it does. But once opened it's not good for storage. I learned this the hard way with Harman WT developer. It's not the bottle, it's the cap that doesn't seal back when the seal is broken. I now open a bottle of that WT developer and immediately pour it into two 16 oz brown plastic bottles (not the best either, I know, but WAY better than the original with the seal broken) and squeeze all the air out. I've kept it a year that way with no problems at all.
 

StoneNYC

Member
Allowing Ads
Joined
Aug 5, 2012
Messages
8,345
Location
Antarctica
Format
8x10 Format

I learned the hard way today, the fixer cap wouldn't come off! I had to cut the damn bottle with a scissors! Good thing I keep spare bottles around "just in case" for the excess concentrate...
 

miha

Member
Allowing Ads
Joined
Feb 15, 2007
Messages
3,045
Location
Slovenia
Format
Multi Format
I read on another forum people complainig how hard it is to open a bottle of DDX. I remember I was barely able to open a bottle of Adox Neutol when 2/3 empty. The developed sucked up all the air and squeezed the bottle.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

StoneNYC

Member
Allowing Ads
Joined
Aug 5, 2012
Messages
8,345
Location
Antarctica
Format
8x10 Format
I read on another forum people complainig how hard it is to open a bottle of DDX.

I use it about half way, then pour it into a 500ml glass bottle, that's just about the failure rate of all the ilford bottles before the caps start having trouble, especially if you have a habit of tightening the lid with any force (to get a good seal).
 

miha

Member
Allowing Ads
Joined
Feb 15, 2007
Messages
3,045
Location
Slovenia
Format
Multi Format
The price of a bottle including the childproof cap is in the range of a couple of cents, cheaper than a wine cork stopper alone. I wish they were made of higher quality. Although more material means higher environmental impact too.
 

StoneNYC

Member
Allowing Ads
Joined
Aug 5, 2012
Messages
8,345
Location
Antarctica
Format
8x10 Format
The price of a bottle including the childproof cap is in the range of a couple of cents, cheaper than a wine cork stopper alone. I wish they were made of higher quality. Although more material means higher environmental impact too.

I'm just an organizer person, I wish they came out with a limited supply run of standard glass chemistry bottles (you know the brown bottles) in 1L with the ilford label on them and then when I got new chemistry in, I could just transfer to the better glass bottles and still have it be ilford bottles. I want Adox to do this with their Rodinal (as I said they mentioned that they bought the Rodinal name so I hope when they start using it, they do a limited glass bottle run as a promotion or something). Heck if nothing else, include a waterproof label to stick on your own bottle!
 

StoneNYC

Member
Allowing Ads
Joined
Aug 5, 2012
Messages
8,345
Location
Antarctica
Format
8x10 Format

If B&H or P Formulary had these at the time I bought all mine, I might have gotten those instead! I like the measurements and label area, sadly I'm all stocked up now on the ugly brown ones... Well at least most people know what they are and not to drink out of them... Lol!
 

Soeren

Member
Allowing Ads
Joined
Nov 5, 2004
Messages
2,675
Location
Naestved, DK
Format
Multi Format

That could be of interest for some. Most are more concerned about how to and certainly how not to handle the product, What to do and not to do if exposed and the kind and level of risk using it.
There may not be fumes but over time the substance will wapourize(word/spl?) and having it stand i a room for maybe severel months makes me worry if you could end up with some bad "climate" in the room.
Best regards
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Xmas

Member
Allowing Ads
Joined
Sep 4, 2006
Messages
6,398
Location
UK
Format
35mm RF
HiSoren

A bottle of a P-aminopheno/high pH developer needs to be treated like drain cleaner, locked medicine chest if you have kids. The cyclic hydro carbon is not nice as well even the painkiller.

The modern packages all should have a tamper proof seal (like they were orange juice) and a child proof cap. The seal is keeping the drain cleaner in.

The normal plastic screw caps are good for 25 years part full bottle if the supplier has used any of the correct recipes, it does not need to say Rodinal, I used Azol for a long time, longest I kept Azol for was 10 years.

Decanting or filtering is not desirable only dripping into measuring flask over sink or bath is allowed.

There should not be much vapour with the plastic bottle but Id not keep it in a kitchen.

The w spelling is ok for vapour we are not fastidious.
 

Simon R Galley

Member
Allowing Ads
Joined
Nov 2, 2005
Messages
2,034
Location
Cheshire UK
Format
Medium Format
The price of a high quality plastic bottle with childproof cap and manufactured to chemical standards along with the detectable mouldings ( for limited vision customers ) is not a 'couple of cents' ...not at all or anywhere near....

Glass would be great, fully recyclable and re-usable and you can get it in green and brown and all different colours and shapes.....

Trouble is... I do not want to buy a million at once and if I buy a lot less I do not want to put the price of my chemistry up by a dollar a bottle ....and I would also rather like to be able to ship it.

Simon. ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited :
 

miha

Member
Allowing Ads
Joined
Feb 15, 2007
Messages
3,045
Location
Slovenia
Format
Multi Format
Hi Simon, HDPE bottles with childproof cap are easily found for 50 pence a piece and I imagine if I buy a 'million' at once, the price drops significantly. Detectable moulding etc is extra of course. Personally I'm fine with any container as have a set of quality bottles that serve me fine.
Cheers.
 

Alan Johnson

Subscriber
Allowing Ads
Joined
Nov 16, 2004
Messages
3,381
In my test of 62 year old Azol it still worked:
(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

This shows that p-aminophenolate does not hydrolyse (react with water).
It is the only developing agent that has this property, metol and phenidone eventually fail by hydrolysis in sealed bottles.

So if one refers to the shelf life of a particular variant of Rodinal it is always oxidation by air that is referred to.
 

Xmas

Member
Allowing Ads
Joined
Sep 4, 2006
Messages
6,398
Location
UK
Format
35mm RF
I bought a 100ml bottle of Azol about 62 used most up and later in 78 tried it and it was ok. Glass bottle rubber stopper & screw cap.

I had an Agfa daylight tank which needed continuous agitation and I only had times for Rodinal for HP3 I think.

Seems like yesterday.