Is Fomadon R09 the Same as Rodinal?

R09 is an older formula and is different than Adonal. The Vaihingen plant is closed as far as I know, this info is dated 2009 but things changed in... Or around 2012 with Adox officially buying the latest formula, they are all now made by Tetenal I believe but to different specs to reflect the different formulas then for example Adox recieves large vats of the developer and re-bottles them in smaller containers.

Ugh I wish I could find the darn thread...

Sorry for offending, you are just difficult, and I can't provide the source but I PROMISE I'm essentially correct that Adonal is the latest Rodinal formula before the original company shut down.

Alessandro Serrao said:

Stone, I've just clarified my previous statement.
What you're saying it's correct, Mirko of Fotoimpex hired Agfa scientists to "reformulate" the 2004 Rodinal recipe.
But this 2004 Rodinal recipe hasn't the legendary keeping qualities of Rodinal many photographers refer to in photo fora.
In that I said that "Adonal IS NOT Rodinal, it hasn't the same shelf life of Rodinal.
Infact the 2004 Rodinal calls for a limited shelf life once the bottle is opened.

P.S.: I usually don't insult people for free, unless I'm insulted first.

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Oh I see, thanks for clarifying.

I would think that the newer version was simply labeled for a more litigious society and not it's failure with lesser keeping properties, that said, that part is opinion. Either way it lasts a LONG time still, in fact, does anyone know, is it safe to leave a bottle open on purpose? I will pour 100ml of Adonal into a bottle and leave it open in my basement for 2 months with no lid, that's a long time of oxygen exposure...

Assuming the fumes aren't dangerous since it's near the air recirculator? Anyone know?

Alessandro Serrao said:

It seems (pick it with a grain of salt) that Agfa in 2005 reformulated Rodinal recipe decreasing the p-aminophenol quantity and increasing the NaOH. Now if I've understood correctly the keeping quality of Rodinal is proportionally direct to the p-aminophenol content. That should solve the shelf life debate.
I would not leave any developer opened, it's not only an oxidation problem. The aqueous part of the developer can evaporate that way leaving a more concentrated solution thus messing around with diluitions, developing times etc...

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Just trying to find a way to oxidize it quickly...

Why did they change it? What was the benefit?

Alessandro Serrao said:

Epic fail dear italiano cafone trapiantato a NY.

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LOL. I'm part Italian, and only speak English, but only had to Google "cafone."
My family would typically use "DP" for the English version of "trapiantato" (not as a literal translation). "Cafone" was implied in context.

StoneNYC said:

Just trying to find a way to oxidize it quickly...

Why did they change it? What was the benefit?

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To make sure people need to buy it more frequently?

MattKing said:

To make sure people need to buy it more frequently?

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Every 10 years instead of every 20? Hah!

In films haydays everyone made clones, they all lasted the same.

Azol came in a dark glass bottle inner rubber stopper screw cap on top - way overkill.

Any of the p-aminophenol/KOH concentrates are going to last longer than other dev types. You should have majored in organic chemistry. I chuck ice in POTA.

In ten years silver will be more expensive and the climate as erratic...

From the ADOX website:

"ADONAL is produced acording to Agfa´s* latest Rodinal* formula from 2004.
ADOX works together with former Agfa scientists on all Agfa-replacement products.
If you have used Rodinal* before you can achieve identical results with ADONAL."


http://www.adox.de/english/ADOLUX/ADOLUX/ADONAL/ADONAL.html

StoneNYC said:

Every 10 years instead of every 20? Hah!

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In my experience 6 months or less. But there is a benefit from it for me, I bought a pair of brand new Sekonics. Just to make sure it is a developer, what is failing, not my light metering.

As many have stated, the Rodinal family of developers seem to have incredibly long life.

I am currently working my way through a 1 litre bottle of Orwo R09 (the stuff that's diluted 1+40) made around 1986 which is inky black but works perfectly - I simply use the published/MDC times for 1+50 Rodinal.

I also have a 250ml bottle of Orwo R09 which is a odd, very dark red colour, made around 1972/73. A drop of this turns an exposed leader black instantly. Haven't got round to trying processing a film yet...

StoneNYC said:

Oh I see, thanks for clarifying.

I would think that the newer version was simply labeled for a more litigious society and not it's failure with lesser keeping properties, that said, that part is opinion. Either way it lasts a LONG time still, in fact, does anyone know, is it safe to leave a bottle open on purpose? I will pour 100ml of Adonal into a bottle and leave it open in my basement for 2 months with no lid, that's a long time of oxygen exposure...

Assuming the fumes aren't dangerous since it's near the air recirculator? Anyone know?

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Well, look at the MSDS.
http://www.adox.de/ADOX_ADONAL(E).pdf
Even if its only 100ml I would prefer not to enter a room full of the fumes so unless your ventilation system is adequate and turned on nonstop during the experiment Id call it a bad idea. Air recirculator? We are talking a fan pulling the air out from the darkroom, right?
Best regards

Alessandro Serrao said:

Epic fail dear italiano cafone trapiantato a NY.
R09 one-shot is packed under intert gas.
http://www.flickr.com/groups/rodinal/discuss/72157622015957803/
"
Fotohuis (Robert) says:

According Sebastian Junghans, marketing manager from Rollei-Maco:
Aphog Kompetenzpartner vom 12.02.2009 zum Thema:

viewtopic.php?f=45&t=8315

Die Original Agfa Rodinal Rezeptur, die für die neuesten Versionen unter der Marke Adox und seit 2006 für
die Marke Rollei R 09 One Shot in Vaihingen produziert werden, unterscheiden sich neben der reineneren
Chemie vor allem durch die Produktion unter Schwergas. Bei uns sogar einschliesslich der Abfüllung in die
Flaschen unter Linde Schwergas. Daher ist das Rodinal, das als Rollei R09 One Shot dem Markt angeboten
wird erheblich länger hell als die früheren Agfa Produktionen.

Nachdem oben bereits zwei Namen genannt wurden, der Vollständigkeit halber:

www.generalphoto.de/shop/article ... 3DGP3RO%26

Production and filling of the bottles under inert gas is the reason that R09 one shot has even a lighter color then Agfa Rodinal in the past. "

Dear italiano cafone trapiantato a NY, I'd suggest you to think twice before offending someone you don't even know personally.
You and that other from Michigan.
Ciao bbelli!!

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Now combine that statement with the fact that the plant in Vaihingen / Enz no longer produces this.

I myself use Compard R09 zone Shot. I have no idea how close it is to the actual Rodinal formulae, but it has worked well for me thus far. At the time I bought it from Freestyle, they'd had Adonal on backorder for a long time and so I finally told them to ship me the Compard instead. I've not used Agfa Rodinal or Adox Adonal previously, so I cannot compare the Compard to anything else, but I've been mighty pleased and it's developing and storage characteristics have been identical to what I've read about Rodinal.

And I'm not Italian, so:
"Ooooh, la due cupole grande de la Cathedrale di Milano!" --'A Fish Called Wanda'

ath said:

Now combine that statement with the fact that the plant in Vaihingen / Enz no longer produces this.

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The question is where the confectionig took place at the time Rodinal was still beeing produced in Veihinngen by A&O and later by CCCP&S?

timor said:

In my experience 6 months or less. But there is a benefit from it for me, I bought a pair of brand new Sekonics. Just to make sure it is a developer, what is failing, not my light metering.

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6 months? Ridiculous, you sure this was Adpx Adonal? And you haven't done something else wrong like diluted it?

That seems very counter to my experience... Especially with the cracked cap incident....

Soeren said:

Well, look at the MSDS.
http://www.adox.de/ADOX_ADONAL(E).pdf
Even if its only 100ml I would prefer not to enter a room full of the fumes so unless your ventilation system is adequate and turned on nonstop during the experiment Id call it a bad idea. Air recirculator? We are talking a fan pulling the air out from the darkroom, right?
Best regards

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Yea, bad idea, it would be in my basement not darkroom... Either way, a bad idea...

StoneNYC said:

6 months? Ridiculous, you sure this was Adpx Adonal? And you haven't done something else wrong like diluted it?

That seems very counter to my experience... Especially with the cracked cap incident....

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I agree Stone and from all I've read 6 mos. would be extremely conservative even for a conservative. I would think from what I have heard about Adonal and my last bottle of Rodinal (post 2004) that we're talking years and not months. Could be wrong, but I don't think so. JohnW

Soeren said:

Well, look at the MSDS.
http://www.adox.de/ADOX_ADONAL(E).pdf
Even if its only 100ml I would prefer not to enter a room full of the fumes so unless your ventilation system is adequate and turned on nonstop during the experiment Id call it a bad idea. Air recirculator? We are talking a fan pulling the air out from the darkroom, right?
Best regards

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I have said this several times before but will say it again. An MSDS must be read carefully and with some knowledge of chemistry. The document does NOT tell the reader what is IN the product but rather what is MIXED to PRODUCE the product. There is a very big difference between the two. There will usually some reactions between the ingredients. There are not going to be any fumes from the ordinary use of this product as a developer.

Gerald C Koch said:

I have said this several times before but will say it again. An MSDS must be read carefully and with some knowledge of chemistry. The document does NOT tell the reader what is IN the product but rather what is MIXED to PRODUCE the product. There is a very big difference between the two. There will usually some reactions between the ingredients. There are not going to be any fumes from the ordinary use of this product as a developer.

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Well that's wrong too, if the developer has an odor, then it produces fumes...

StoneNYC said:

Well that's wrong too, if the developer has an odor, then it produces fumes...

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Strictly speaking that is true but I think most people would understand what I meant. It is a matter of degree. A rotten egg smells of hydrogen sulfide but would not be considered a practical source of it. No one is going to die from being in a room with a rotten egg.

Gerald C Koch said:

I have said this several times before but will say it again. An MSDS must be read carefully and with some knowledge of chemistry. The document does NOT tell the reader what is IN the product but rather what is MIXED to PRODUCE the product. There is a very big difference between the two. There will usually some reactions between the ingredients.

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A safety data sheet is to inform about a substance or mixture.

A mixture is something different than just the sum of the ingredients mixed you refer to.

Alessandro Serrao said:

So what?
Compard is making the packaging so Compard is flushing the bottle with inert gas while Adox doesn't.

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Tell me what does inert gas flushing of the bottle at the plant have to do with my bottles keeping property after I crack the seal. I only care about how long it will last after my bottle of Adonal has been opened. 6 mos. seems a little on the short side to me since I still have my old bottle of Rodinal (post 2004) and it's working just fine. I would think the two, post 2004 Rodinal and Adonal, should be the same. JohnW

JW PHOTO said:

Tell me what does inert gas flushing of the bottle at the plant have to do with my bottles keeping property after I crack the seal. I only care about how long it will last after my bottle of Adonal has been opened. 6 mos. seems a little on the short side to me since I still have my old bottle of Rodinal (post 2004) and it's working just fine. I would think the two, post 2004 Rodinal and Adonal, should be the same. JohnW

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Exactly....

What he's inferring is that the tiny bit of O2 at the top will set of the bottles failure cascade... (Probably the wrong terms, but once oxygen is introduced to the developer, it begins to degrade, you see this through the discoloration...)

I've looked at both bottles, the R09 and Adonal... They both have the same pinkish shoe, if they were pure, with no oxygen introduced, then they would both be sure clear liquid, the cute means that some oxygen has been introduced at some point from the time it was taken from the large vats, and placed into the small bottles. Once that's happened, as far as I know, it doesn't really matter anymore you started the cascade effect, and the developer is degrading... Obviously if you introduce more oxygen, this will speed up the rate of decay (or whatever it's called that causes the developer to become ineffective). My dad is a chemist, but I am not, so forgive me if I'm speaking slightly incorrectly, but that's basically what happens. So apparently whatever gas is being put into the R09 bottles, it's obviously not really working properly to prevent any kind of contamination... Also, the plastic itself is porous, no matter how preventative of a plastic it is, it is still porous, and oxygen is still being introduced to the plastic, so that little bit of gas does nothing to protect the bottle itself...

I've decided, for the heck of it, to take one of the bottles of Adonal that I have, with an unbroken seal, and I'm going to keep it, I'm going to keep it for years and years and years, and every time I get a new bottle, I'm going to compare it to this specially labeled bottle, and I bet for sure that they color of the developer will change very little... And in 10 years time, I'll break the seal, and then I'll use the developer, just to prove you wrong mister Italiano

AgX said:

A safety data sheet is to inform about a substance or mixture.

A mixture is something different than just the sum of the ingredients mixed you refer to.

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Very true which is why I said there may be some reactions which take place on mixing. I'm sure that you must have missed this when reading. This was the point of my post. People tend to think that because the MSDS for Rodinal lists potassium hydroxide that the product contains a lot of this alkali. In actuality it combines with the p-aminophenol to form a phenolate and the bisulfite to form sulfite both of which are NOT listed in the MSDS. This is why I said that an MSDS needs to be read carefully and that a certain knowledge of chemistry is needed to get the full benefit of the document.

JW PHOTO said:

Tell me what does inert gas flushing of the bottle at the plant have to do with my bottles keeping property after I crack the seal. I only care about how long it will last after my bottle of Adonal has been opened. 6 mos. seems a little on the short side to me since I still have my old bottle of Rodinal (post 2004) and it's working just fine. I would think the two, post 2004 Rodinal and Adonal, should be the same. JohnW

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The problem is that photographic solutions are no longer shipped using the best containers. Often a polyethylene bottle is used seriously compromising the shelf life of the product. When Agfa stopped bottling Rodinal in glass they used a composite plastic bottle that was better than an ordinary one. Now everything is dependent on the "bottom line" and short cuts are taken.