Is DSLR scanning "better" than flatbed scanning?

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PeterTredrea

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Can you post a photo of your vacuum cleaner setup?

I've also been doing 3 or 4 stitched photos of 6x6. Software does a good job stitching these days. I am using a lower MP camera than yours. A Canon 550D 18mp. It does the job as far as I can tell. I may attempt to switch to a 6D full frame but I don't think a larger sensor would be the difference maker at this point. Might be worth finding a used higher mp DSLR.

I suspect the small difference in resolution is of little performance consequence. A larger sensor should be of no benefit. I'm using a 60mm Micro-Nikkor. This is a full frame lens and offers me the benefit of not using the edges of the lens. Although the lens is first class, the use of a full-frame lens on an APS-C sensor adds a little performance benefit - no penalty. I agree that modern stitching software performs very well. You could increase the magnification of your system and make two images of the 35mm frame then stitch for a 30MPx plus result. My current experience suggests that 20MPx is a good resolution for even the best performing 35mm films although I'm sure there will be a counter argument on that topic. Will photo the cleaning system and forward.
 
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Anon Ymous

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A Canon 550D 18mp. It does the job as far as I can tell. I may attempt to switch to a 6D full frame but I don't think a larger sensor would be the difference maker at this point.

The difference between these two is a mere 2MP. But the full frame 6D will use more of the edges of whatever lens you use, while the 550D will mostly use the central part of the projected image, which offers better sharpness. If I had to make a guess, I'd say you're not going to gain anything.
 

Helge

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My current experience suggests that 20MPx is a good resolution for even the best performing 35mm films although I'm sure there will be a counter argument on that topic.

Smells like bait, but I’ll bite.
Most digital shots does not use the full resolution of the sensor either. Even with AF, VR and IBIS and similar motion blur and focus problems is still detracting from overall resolution.

A well shot 135 frame, with high shutter speed or from a tripod, has way more than 20MPs equivalent of information though.

Scanning at higher resolutions is important for reasons other than ultimate resolution.
Sensor noise and interference beating between substrate and sensor matrix will create false grain and amplify grain clusters.

So even if you shot the frame with a full open triplet, scanning at higher resolutions than 24MP still makes a lot of sense, especially if we are talking a “final” once and for all scan of an important frame.

For stuff you barely care about, 20MP is “fine”.
 

Cholentpot

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I suspect the small difference in resolution is of little performance consequence. A larger sensor should be of no benefit. I'm using a 60mm Micro-Nikkor. This is a full frame lens and offers me the benefit of not using the edges of the lens. Although the lens is first class, the use of a full-frame lens on an APS-C sensor adds a little performance benefit - no penalty. I agree that modern stitching software performs very well. You could increase the magnification of your system and make two images of the 35mm frame then stitch for a 30MPx plus result. My current experience suggests that 20MPx is a good resolution for even the best performing 35mm films although I'm sure there will be a counter argument on that topic. Will photo the cleaning system and forward.

The difference between these two is a mere 2MP. But the full frame 6D will use more of the edges of whatever lens you use, while the 550D will mostly use the central part of the projected image, which offers better sharpness. If I had to make a guess, I'd say you're not going to gain anything.

I'm using an EF 100 2.8 macro, does the job. I had a scanner that worked for a few weeks, A Nikon Super CoolScan 4000. I preferred my DSLR for B&W and the scanner for color. I still have scanner but it seems to need a CLA of sorts.
 

wiltw

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Smells like bait, but I’ll bite.
Most digital shots does not use the full resolution of the sensor either. Even with AF, VR and IBIS and similar motion blur and focus problems is still detracting from overall resolution.

A well shot 135 frame, with high shutter speed or from a tripod, has way more than 20MPs equivalent of information though.

Scanning at higher resolutions is important for reasons other than ultimate resolution.
Sensor noise and interference beating between substrate and sensor matrix will create false grain and amplify grain clusters.

So even if you shot the frame with a full open triplet, scanning at higher resolutions than 24MP still makes a lot of sense, especially if we are talking a “final” once and for all scan of an important frame.

For stuff you barely care about, 20MP is “fine”.
Thinking out aloud here, about the debate about scanner vs dSLR replication of images on film...

Back in the day (1960's thru 1970's) per the published lens test reports by Modern Photography or Popular Photography, a really really exceptional lens could resolve 120 lp/mm, an 'excellent' lens could achieve about 80 lp/mm, and a 'good' (most) lens could do about 64 lp/mm, assuming a super-fine grained film like Panatomic -X was used for testing. Archived are quite a few of the tests results http://www.edsawyer.com/lenstests/

120 lp/mm would mean 241 pixels per millimeter, per the Nyquist limits theory (2n +1). So, for the sake of discussion, let's use 80 lp/mm optical resolution captured with fine grain film resolution and simplify and round Nyquist to 160 pixels.
  • (160 * 24mm) x (200 * 35mm) = 22.12 MPixels to recreate 80 lp/mm combined optics + film resolution, usually the max on film.
Anything more from a scanner or from dSLR would be overkill, wouldn't it?!
 
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PeterTredrea

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Thinking out aloud here, about the debate about scanner vs dSLR replication of images on film...

Back in the day (1960's thru 1970's) per the published lens test reports by Modern Photography or Popular Photography, a really really exceptional lens could resolve 120 lp/mm, an 'excellent' lens could achieve about 80 lp/mm, and a 'good' (most) lens could do about 64 lp/mm, assuming a super-fine grained film like Panatomic -X was used for testing. Archived are quite a few of the tests results http://www.edsawyer.com/lenstests/

120 lp/mm would mean 241 pixels per millimeter, per the Nyquist limits theory (2n +1). So, for the sake of discussion, let's use 80 lp/mm optical resolution captured with fine grain film resolution and simplify and round Nyquist to 160 pixels.
  • (160 * 24mm) x (200 * 35mm) = 22.12 MPixels to recreate 80 lp/mm combined optics + film resolution, usually the max on film.
Anything more from a scanner or from dSLR would be overkill, wouldn't it?!

Thanks for a more technical response to the question. From my perspective, I try to avoid mathematical responses to these questions and focus on the output or consequence of a technical decision. My first contact with the digital domain was at work when we purchased a Nikon D70 for general microscopy (a research lab environment). After years of Kodachrome and Ektachrome 35mm, the low pixel count D70 (6MPx) provided a very convenient solution to a wide range of problems. Resolution was not one of them. Copying a good Kodachrome at 20 MPx provides a very reasonable facsimile of the original.
My own interest in photography has always been monochrome from 35mm up to ULF (16x20). My use of large format film is not to pursue resolution but more the aesthetic results that only film can provide. My most recent project has been the construction of a swing lens camera based on an El-Nikkor 105mm lens exposing a 5 x 10+ inch sheet of film. The theoretical capture stats of this camera are much higher than any digital camera, but resolution again is not the aim. I would encourage any user of digital technology (35mm film to digital in this instance) to judge and assess the output.
 
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Helge

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Thinking out aloud here, about the debate about scanner vs dSLR replication of images on film...

Back in the day (1960's thru 1970's) per the published lens test reports by Modern Photography or Popular Photography, a really really exceptional lens could resolve 120 lp/mm, an 'excellent' lens could achieve about 80 lp/mm, and a 'good' (most) lens could do about 64 lp/mm, assuming a super-fine grained film like Panatomic -X was used for testing. Archived are quite a few of the tests results http://www.edsawyer.com/lenstests/

120 lp/mm would mean 241 pixels per millimeter, per the Nyquist limits theory (2n +1). So, for the sake of discussion, let's use 80 lp/mm optical resolution captured with fine grain film resolution and simplify and round Nyquist to 160 pixels.
  • (160 * 24mm) x (200 * 35mm) = 22.12 MPixels to recreate 80 lp/mm combined optics + film resolution, usually the max on film.
Anything more from a scanner or from dSLR would be overkill, wouldn't it?!

Ok, this is fundamentally a deceiving and pretty complex topic.
Achieving 100 line pairs per milimeter is not unrealistic or that hard, if that is the priority.

Even a so so lens will achieve high resolving power, at least 100 lp/mm stopped down, in the center.
A macro or apo lens, or just a very good normal lens can achieve 100 lp/mm at modest apertures.

If you couple that with slide or slowish negative like Portra 160 or TMX, you’ll be able to get close to the theoretical data sheet number.
So 100 x 2 in 36 x 24 is 7200 x 4800 = 34.560.000 aka 34MP in a theoretical perfectly aligned matrix to the lines.
But to really actually match film with real world photos, you can comfortably double or triple that number.

But that is line pairs. Not at the outset sine waves/cycles which is what Nyquist/Shannon talks about. And certainly not pixels.
And also N/S is about sampling a signal.
The signal on film is, as alluded to earlier mixed with the speciel kind of substrate noise called grain.
You need to sample that too, to get the full signal.
Noise on noise always creates new unpredictable noise.
The aliasing of the matrix, the sensor readout noise and the grain creates new artifacts, if sampled too sparsely.

There is a reason why optical special effects, with multiple generations was made on larger formats to be printed down to 35mm. That was not about sampling, but simply about interference patterns.

This effect of noise on noise is actually used to generate new textures cheaply on CGI. Look up Perlin noise.

When colour and more chaotic signals get involved things get impossible with the simplistic reading of the theorem.

There is a reason why the term “oversampling” exists.

An OK alternative to macro and stitch is to take multiple shots, while “bumping” the carrier slightly between each. And then merge the exposures.
This will take much of the Bayer filter effect out and oversample the frame pseudo randomly.
 
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Cholentpot

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Thanks for a more technical response to the question. From my perspective, I try to avoid mathematical responses to these questions and focus on the output or consequence of a technical decision. My first contact with the digital domain was at work when we purchased a Nikon D70 for general microscopy (a research lab environment). After years of Kodachrome and Ektachrome 35mm, the low pixel count D70 (6MPx) provided a very convenient solution to a wide range of problems. Resolution was not one of them. Copying a good Kodachrome at 20 MPx provides a very reasonable facsimile of the original.
My own interest in photography has always been monochrome from 35mm up to ULF (16x20). My use of large format film is not to pursue resolution but more the aesthetic results that only film can provide. My most recent project has been the construction of a swing lens camera based on an El-Nikkor 105mm lens exposing a 5 x 10+ inch sheet of film. The theoretical capture stats of this camera are much higher than any digital camera, but resoltution again is not the aim. I would encourage any user of digital technology (35mm film to digital in this instance) to judge and assess the output.

To me this is the correct answer.

I'm not worried so much about the resolution, rather the aesthetic.
 

Helge

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To me this is the correct answer.

I'm not worried so much about the resolution, rather the aesthetic.

Why, resolution is aestetic. It’s not a measuring contest.
Resolution has a direct and indirect impact on how the image looks.
 

Cholentpot

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Why, resolution is aestetic. It’s not a measuring contest.
Resolution has a direct and indirect impact on how the image looks.

16mm half frame stills. You can pull resolution out of it but is that the point?
 

Helge

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16mm half frame stills. You can pull resolution out of it but is that the point?

Might be. If you use stuff like CMS 20 or TMX you could pull out some amazing results from a film camera that takes up less space than the average phone.
4K scans of 8mm shows us the huge potential there really is in film.
 

Cholentpot

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Might be. If you use stuff like CMS 20 or TMX you could pull out some amazing results from a film camera that takes up less space than the average phone.
4K scans of 8mm shows us the huge potential there really is in film.

You can pull some amazing stuff from 16mm and a DSLR scanning rig. It's just not worth it for most people.
 

Helge

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You can pull some amazing stuff from 16mm and a DSLR scanning rig. It's just not worth it for most people.

It wouldn’t be that hard. Haven’t used my MEC 16 yet, but a 10x14 mm frame might actually be sufficiently resolved by a macroshot from a 24MP camera.
 

Cholentpot

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It wouldn’t be that hard. Haven’t used my MEC 16 yet, but a 10x14 mm frame might actually be sufficiently resolved by a macroshot from a 24MP camera.

Checkout the long running 110/16mm thread. There's some incredible stuff there.

GUGu16f.jpg
 

PeterTredrea

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Can you post a photo of your vacuum cleaner setup?

I've also been doing 3 or 4 stitched photos of 6x6. Software does a good job stitching these days. I am using a lower MP camera than yours. A Canon 550D 18mp. It does the job as far as I can tell. I may attempt to switch to a 6D full frame but I don't think a larger sensor would be the difference maker at this point. Might be worth finding a used higher mp DSLR.
Agree, sensor size (larger) offers no benefit to the copying process. My D7200 has an APS-C sensor and when combined with the 60mm micro-Nikkor offers a potential benefit by only using the central portion of the lens full frame image.
The box has an air outflow at the top and vacuum at the bottom corner. I regulate the flow intensity with an electronic controller. The filter unit replaces the simple filter that came with the vacuum cleaner.
Effectively, I have filled the chamber with a "toy stuffing" wrapped in a clean cloth material forming a set of close fitting pads.
Ran the unit per a short while to ensure its cleaning function was working and any loose material was captured.
The air flow from the top is combined with the action of a soft brush. To date, the unit has worked very well.
 

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Cholentpot

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Agree, sensor size (larger) offers no benefit to the copying process. My D7200 has an APS-C sensor and when combined with the 60mm micro-Nikkor offers a potential benefit by only using the central portion of the lens full frame image.
The box has an air outflow at the top and vacuum at the bottom corner. I regulate the flow intensity with an electronic controller. The filter unit replaces the simple filter that came with the vacuum cleaner.
Effectively, I have filled the chamber with a "toy stuffing" wrapped in a clean cloth material forming a set of close fitting pads.
Ran the unit per a short while to ensure its cleaning function was working and any loose material was captured.
The air flow from the top is combined with the action of a soft brush. To date, the unit has worked very well.

This is next level stuff.
 
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