Is a film curve with a very short toe desireable most of the time?

[RobC]

Is a film curve with a very short toe desireable most of the time?

I guess it is but not always as the look it gives is subjective but sure helps keeping separation in shadows if thats what you want. What do you think?

 

[Anon Ymous]

I agree with the above, but still think that a long toe film isn't useful. IMHO, slight underexposure of a short toe film, combined with a bit longer development, or stronger developer can give at least something very close.

 

[David Lyga]

You cannot have your cake and eat it too.

Better shadow separation is certain with short toe, but at the expense of the other tones. Usually this is not a dire problem, as we are accustomed to seeing scenes with different interpretations and, to tell the truth, the differences might not even be noticeable. But, that said, it does depend upon what you wish to impart, in terms of subjective interpretation. If the shadow tells much of the picture, then there is a slight benefit towards the short toe (so that threshold densities will be quickly moved up upon the characteristic curve, showing much separation). But if you opt for better mid tone and highlight separation, then maybe that short toe will work to slight disadvantage.

Again, the differences are not profound, but it is the subtleties which can make the photograph. How you print it also enters into the equation. - David Lyga

 

[RalphLambrecht]

Is a film curve with a very short toe desireable most of the time?

I guess it is but not always as the look it gives is subjective but sure helps keeping separation in shadows if thats what you want. What do you think?

It's my favorite because of the shadow detail.best printed on normal-contrast paper for max midtone detail

 

[RobC]

I've always wondered about this. Barry Thornton used to go on about getting a very short toe. BUT for example, long toe curve of the old Plus-X film was considered good for studio portraits. I don't think there are really hard and fast rules becasue its very subjective. But on the other hand, if you've got really good shadow seapration (without getting fixated on that) yo can always print them down whereas opening up lack of separation is not so easy.

 

[Jim Jones]

The above replies are all valid. The impact of Yousuf Karsh's portraits of men relied on careful exposure and development to extend the film toe while preserving some shadow detail and accentuating highlight contrast. It was less flattering when applied to young women. Short toe film results in bland prints of some subjects.

 

[removed account4]

since it is all opinion ...
i like low key images, not brilliant sparkley contrasty highlights
and i like to use films ( and paper ) with longer toes
like pan f, from what i read plus x had a similar long toe ( and i loved using plus x )

http://www.film-and-darkroom-user.org.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=3478

while i am clueless about toes and shoulders, i like making paper negative portraits using
low grade ( like grade 0 and grade 1 and grade 2, or the equiv enlarging filters with vc ) photo paper, which i am guessing
makes the equivilant of a long toe .... i don't use xray film or lith film but i am guessing they are short toe
and development technique ( stand develop, dilute developers, restrainers &c ) allow the user to tame the shoulder and
invent a toe.

i love being wrong, and i am sure i and just throwing lingo/terminology around without a clue.

YMMV

 

[Jim Noel]

You cannot have your cake and eat it too.

Better shadow separation is certain with short toe, but at the expense of the other tones. Usually this is not a dire problem, as we are accustomed to seeing scenes with different interpretations and, to tell the truth, the differences might not even be noticeable. But, that said, it does depend upon what you wish to impart, in terms of subjective interpretation. If the shadow tells much of the picture, then there is a slight benefit towards the short toe (so that threshold densities will be quickly moved up upon the characteristic curve, showing much separation). But if you opt for better mid tone and highlight separation, then maybe that short toe will work to slight disadvantage.

Again, the differences are not profound, but it is the subtleties which can make the photograph. How you print it also enters into the equation. - David Lyga

Mid tones are controlled by the slope of the curve,not the length of the toe. Highlight separation is determined by the abruptness of the shoulder as well as the slope.

 

[RobC]

Not for Rob but for others who may not be aware, keep in mind flare effectively lengthens the toe. Kodak Tri-X 320 (TXP) has a longer toe by design and is intended for use primarily under low flare/controlled lighting conditions. Flare is an important tone reproduction variable missed by people when they do things like Zone System tests and plot zero-flare curves. From a comparative perspective it's still good of course. It's just good to realize the toe you graph is not necessarily the toe you effectively get when you make pictures.

The ISO speed standard is rooted in print quality studies which defined a constant relationship between the gradient at the shadow exposure and the average gradient, and it applied to films with different toe shapes. Mid-tone contrast is a key variable in the subjective sense of print quality.

It seems to me that if flare actually occured then using a reflection meter would give readings which would underexpose the negative. However, when you actually expose the image with a camera lens it would give too much exposoure due to flare. So the meter indicating too little exposure and the lens actually giving more than it should would pretty much cancel each other out.

 

[DREW WILEY]

Does the same size of shoes fit every different person? Of course not. Feet aren't all the same. Nor are light ratios, printing papers, photographic
subjects, and personal preferences all the same. The only so-called straight line film left on the market is Fomapan 200, which is a damn poor substitute for the now discontinued Bergger 200 and Kodak Super-XX. But TMax 400 is a high-quality substitute with a relatively abrupt toe. When I
wander into the redwoods with my 8x10, the foggy natural softbox lighting might change within half an hour to over twelve stops of lighting. Or up in the mountains, dark rock formations adjacent to brilliant snow and ice might impose the same kind of challenge. If one merely "minus" develops a typical film, or does compensating development, that will bring the extremes closer together, but not solve the problem of poorly differentiated shadow values with crisply separated highlights at the same time. Only a film with a very long straight line will do that. But there are other situations, like casually snapshooting with a Nikon, where I might prefer more of a toe. This could be discussed hours on end. But curve shape in
general is an important topic.

 

[Old-N-Feeble]

Provided the straight line is long enough, and one gives enough exposure to keep shadow detail away from the compressed toe, and controls development to retain the highlights... what's the need for a short toe?

 

[DREW WILEY]

Some more. No, this is not all opinion. It is a science called sensitometry. But one needs to learn the practical implications. And yes, the toe characteristics very much affect midtone reproduction, because if you have to expose the film significantly further up the curve just to get adequate
shadow separation, there goes everything else up the curve too, and maybe right over the top, onto the shoulder. Or maybe you'll have to scrunch
something else to get the job done, resulting either in poorly differentiated microtonality in the midtones or mush in the shadows. But a steep toe
means that if you accidentally underexpose the film and rely on some "latitude" nonsense, there might not be any detail left in the shadows. For
that kind of casual approach, you need a more forgiving film. It's easier to get in a wreck with a high performance vehicle, so to speak; but when
you need the horsepower, ya got it!

 

[Old-N-Feeble]

^^^ Yes but a very long straight line negates all those worries.

 

[DREW WILEY]

So no 3 post, just fer you my Texas friend.... Down thar whar the air is constantly saturated with either gun powder smoke or nicotine fumes, or maybe just another Dust Bowl, maybe two stops of range is all you need for your straight line portion of the film. Come out here and get into the
high country (yes, not all the earth is flat!), and there are plenty of relevant applications for a film with a steep toe. It interesting how people who
routinely argue with me about this subject seem to either live or photograph in a haze most of their life. I presume the flash powder you use when
taking portraits might also contribute to that situation.

 

[Old-N-Feeble]

So no 3 post, just fer you my Texas friend.... Down thar whar the air is constantly saturated with either gun powder smoke or nicotine fumes, or maybe just another Dust Bowl, maybe two stops of range is all you need for your straight line portion of the film. Come out here and get into the
high country (yes, not all the earth is flat!), and there are plenty of relevant applications for a film with a steep toe. It interesting how people who
routinely argue with me about this subject seem to either live or photograph in a haze most of their life. I presume the flash powder you use when
taking portraits might also contribute to that situation.

Well... Drew... our air heeer in south Texxus may be saturated with gunpowder but I don't smoke. I live in a greenbelt... sort of. Too stops range? Nahh... I'll take sevin. The earth heer ain't flat but it's purty close. Relivunce is offun a matter of pre-spektive. I likely doo liv in a haiz but it don't make mee rong jus' cuz I mite disagree witcha. And... I ain't yoozed no flash pouder in weeks.

There, does that make you feel better and give you a sense of superiority knowing I'm an ignorant south Texas redneck?

 

[DREW WILEY]

I ciphered thet all red necks done looked pink in thet thar haze. Oh, scuse me, y'all. We be talkin about black n wayt film.

 

[RobC]

There's exposure, and there's curve shape. Flare doesn't only raise the shadow exposure, it flattens contrast progressively into the shadows. It's not the curve shape that changes, but where things fall on the curve. The lower the luminance of a particular object in a scene, the more displaced it will be from its expected place on the curve.

good job I expose for the highlights and most of the time my zone 1,2,3 are well above 0.1 then.

 

[pentaxuser]

Well... Drew... our air heeer in south Texxus may be saturated with gunpowder but I don't smoke. I live in a greenbelt... sort of. Too stops range? Nahh... I'll take sevin. The earth heer ain't flat but it's purty close. Relivunce is offun a matter of pre-spektive. I likely doo liv in a haiz but it don't make mee rong jus' cuz I mite disagree witcha. And... I ain't yoozed no flash pouder in weeks.

There, does that make you feel better and give you a sense of superiority knowing I'm an ignorant south Texas redneck?

This sort of language takes me back a while to when Buddy Ebsen delivered his admonition to Fess Parker that he had fired his second shot too quickly in that target shooting contest with "Bigfoot"

However Fess had actually achieved with his musket the equivalent of Robin Hood splitting the first arrow in the bullseye with the second arrow.

Anyone remember that?

pentaxuser

 

[RobC]

I expect there's quite a few who are old enough.

 

[Old-N-Feeble]

LINK ??

 

[RobC]

LINK ??

what link?

 

[markbarendt]

Is a film curve with a very short toe desirable most of the time?

No.

I guess it is but not always as the look it gives is subjective but sure helps keeping separation in shadows if thats what you want. What do you think?

It's surely about what one wants. I love both HP5 & TXP in 4x5. Happy to use either in any situation.

 

[Old-N-Feeble]

what link?

A link to pentaxuser's Buddy Ebsen and Fess Parker story. Never mind... easily found on youtube.

 

[Stephen Benskin]

As Michael wrote, flare plays a part in the separation of the shadows. While it increases exposure, it also compresses the tones. But flare is not the only obstacle to good shadow separation. Perceptually, we tend to compress shadows. We are also influence by the relationship between tones known as adjacency. There's a very nice illustration in The Theory of the Photographic Process.

Paper also plays a factor. Oriental Seagull had a very soft shoulder and it would take forever to go from 90% D-Max to D-Max. I liked the affect which I called perceived black. An area appeared black from a distance but had some detail when you looked closely. The only film I shoot is TXP 4x5, but I tend to print on a slightly higher grade to pull out mid-tone and shadow contrast at the expense of highlight contrast. The old portrait paper is said not to have a straight line portion compressing all tones. Like darker skin, it was the fashion.

A short toed curve has less compression in the shadows, but like most aspects of photography, there are many factors involved which may off-set any advantage.