Iron-based and other alt. processes: toning and fixing

[glbeas]

Im curious about the gold-citric acid and the gold bicarbonate toners. Whats the recipe for them? I would love to try one of them out on this print. Van Dyke on Legion Stonehenge.

 

[fgorga]

Im curious about the gold-citric acid and the gold bicarbonate toners. Whats the recipe for them? I would love to try one of them out on this print. Van Dyke on Legion Stonehenge.

Gary,

I use one of the many variations of gold toner cited in Chris Anderson's salted-paper book.

The recipe is very simple 7 mL of 1% (w/v) gold chloride + 500 mL 1% (w/v) sodium bicarbonate. Mix together until the solution goes from yellowish to colorless. I use it for one printing session and then discard. Actually, I often make only 300 mL of toner which is the minimum I am comfortable with in a tray for 8x10 paper.

This toner is used PRE-fixing. Processing is 2x 5% (w/v) salt for 4 min each, 1x with water for 4 min and then toner. After the toner the processing is 1% sodium carbonate for 4 min, 2x fixer for 4 min each, water for 4 min and lastly hypo clear (10% sodium sulfite) for 4 min.

I took a quick look in Don Nelson's book on the iron-silver processes. Among the many variations of gold toners for Vandyke Brown that are listed he mentions exactly the same gold/bicarbonate recipe cited above as giving a deep chocolate brown on HPR. Do note that, as with salted-paper, all of the toning of Vandyke brown prints is done before fixing.

The incredible variety of colors resulting from the action of different gold toners on a Vandyke Brown print is quite amazing. It is well worth a look at Nelson's book just for this chapter alone.

P.S. I do not see a gold-citrate toner mentioned in either the salted paper book or the iron-silver processes book.

 

[glbeas]

Thank you Frank. A bit of research tells me you can replace thiourea in Clercs formula with equal amounts of citric acid. Maybe this is what was being referenced to.

 

[glbeas]

{Moderator note: this thread was split off from the original here: https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/showcase-for-your-hcwps.199853/page-34}

Something I am curious about. Most recommendations for toning iron silver process prints is to tone before fixing. Anybody know why this is? What does the fixer do to the image that interferes with the toning process?

 

[fgorga]

Something I am curious about. Most recommendations for toning iron silver process prints is to tone before fixing. Anybody know why this is? What does the fixer do to the image that interferes with the toning process?

I have also wondered about this but I do not have an answer.

All I can say is that everything I have read regarding noble metal toning of silver-based alt process prints says tone before fixing.

Conversely, everything I've read about selenium toning of the same type of prints says tone after fixing.

I'm not enough of an inorganic chemist to even make a postulate regarding the reason(s).

 

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

Something I am curious about. Most recommendations for toning iron silver process prints is to tone before fixing. Anybody know why this is? What does the fixer do to the image that interferes with the toning process?

Fixing usually results in some loss of silver which can be avoided by toning before fixing. And fixing invariably produces some Silver Sulphide in the print which might not be replaced by the noble metal after toning.

Conversely, everything I've read about selenium toning of the same type of prints says tone after fixing.

Selenium toner has loads of Ammonium Thiosulphate in it. So if it is used before fixing, it gets contaminated by the silver halides that Thiosulphate removes. And being a strong fixer, Selenium toner could also remove some silver resulting in loss of density.

 

[nmp]

Fixing usually results in some loss of silver which can be avoided by toning before fixing. And fixing invariably produces some Silver Sulphide in the print which might not be replaced by the noble metal after toning.




Selenium toner has loads of Ammonium Thiosulphate in it. So if it is used before fixing, it gets contaminated by the silver halides that Thiosulphate removes. And being a strong fixer, Selenium toner could also remove some silver resulting in loss of density.

Gold toner may or may not be used before fixing. Some folks prefer to tone afterwards to make sure the print is good enough not to waste expensive toner. In my experience/testing with salted paper prints though, fixing process did not reduce the density (I don't know about VDB) but if that is a concern, then yes it is better to tone before. Another advantage of toning before is that there is no separate washing process required. Additionally, there is a silver halide formation as a result of toning, which can effectively be removed during subsequent fixing. If you tone after fixing, there is a question as to whether a second fixing is required or just let the silver halide stay in the print.

Now regarding selenium, primary reason to tone after fixing is that unlike gold, selenium will react both to metallic silver (of the image) as well as silver salts which are still in the paper, resulting in staining. So there is no choice but to fix/wash first to remove silver salts and tone later.

That is how I understand.....

:Niranjan.

 

[Tom Taylor]

I fix after toning but when I first started making salt prints I didn't tone and noticed a slight bleach-back effect when fixing. I countered this by adding non-detergent house ammonia or sodium carbonate to the dissolved sodium thiosulphate as recommended in the Christopher James book.

Thomas

 

[fgorga]

Fixing usually results in some loss of silver which can be avoided by toning before fixing. And fixing invariably produces some Silver Sulphide in the print which might not be replaced by the noble metal after toning.

Selenium toner has loads of Ammonium Thiosulphate in it. So if it is used before fixing, it gets contaminated by the silver halides that Thiosulphate removes. And being a strong fixer, Selenium toner could also remove some silver resulting in loss of density.

Gold toner may or may not be used before fixing. Some folks prefer to tone afterwards to make sure the print is good enough not to waste expensive toner. In my experience/testing with salted paper prints though, fixing process did not reduce the density (I don't know about VDB) but if that is a concern, then yes it is better to tone before. Another advantage of toning before is that there is no separate washing process required. Additionally, there is a silver halide formation as a result of toning, which can effectively be removed during subsequent fixing. If you tone after fixing, there is a question as to whether a second fixing is required or just let the silver halide stay in the print.

Now regarding selenium, primary reason to tone after fixing is that unlike gold, selenium will react both to metallic silver (of the image) as well as silver salts which are still in the paper, resulting in staining. So there is no choice but to fix/wash first to remove silver salts and tone later.

That is how I understand.....

:Niranjan.

Thank you gentlemen.

Hopefully I will remember this information the next time some someone asks me about toning.

 

[fgorga]

I fix after toning but when I first started making salt prints I didn't tone and noticed a slight bleach-back effect when fixing. I countered this by adding non-detergent house ammonia or sodium carbonate to the dissolved sodium thiosulphate as recommended in the Christopher James book.

Thomas

Yes... I always use a alkaline (sodium carbonate-containing) fixer for salted-paper. This is also what is recommended in Chris Anderson's book.

 

[nmp]

Yes... I always use a alkaline (sodium carbonate-containing) fixer for salted-paper. This is also what is recommended in Chris Anderson's book.

Apart from helping reduce bleaching during fixing, alkaline fixer also is a must for the stability of the fixer. Without sodium carbonate, the fixer will turn into a stinky sulfide toner in due time...

:Niranjan.

 

[Tom Taylor]

Most, if not all, of the salt print on my website were fixed for 60 seconds which many people consider too short. One of my favorites is Three Brothers which has been hanging o my wall for 10 years now and it looks like it was printed yesterday:

 

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

Interestingly, Wolfgang Moersch recommends weakly acidic diluted rapid fixer, probably one shot, for Kallitype, Lobotype, and Vandyke Brown:

"In my opinion, however, a slightly acidic ammonium thiosulphate bath is the best choice for Kallitypie. I use my ATS fixer in dilution 1+10"

And for Lumen prints, acidic fixer is what is generally recommended (Christina Z Anderson, The Experimental Darkroom: Contemporary Uses of Traditional Black & White Photographic Materials).

 

[koraks]

Moderator note: this discussion was originally part of the HCWP showcase thread. But since the subject matter of toners, toning before/after fixing and fixing as such is highly relevant on its own, we've split it off into a separate thread.

 

[glbeas]

I got a gold toner kit from Bostick and Sullivan, gold chloride and ammonium thiocyanate. I tried out first a fixed and washed print and after drying saw it was a pretty neutral tone. Next I printed the same image, rinsed and toned before the fix. I suspect the toner gave out before it could go to completion because I got an interesting split tone and would go no further even with replenishment with more gold chloride.
The toned before fix print is on the left. Not sure what to make of that.

 

[Adam W]

For my Van Dyke Brown prints, I use Clerc's gold thiourea toner, as explained by Wynne White in this article.

I make these prints much less often nowadays, so I think I'll try this technique (I can't remember the source):

"My approach to using Clerc's is to make up the main solution (thiourea, acid, salt) without gold. When I need toner, I measure out enough solution for one print, then add gold with a dropper. One drop of 1% gold solution per ml. I use the result once and discard."​

 

[koraks]

I do it that way too.

 

[revdoc]

That quote comes from this guy.

 

[koraks]

It seemed strangely familiar, lol.