IR imagesetting film?

Back on The Mound

A
Back on The Mound

  • 2
  • 0
  • 48
The Castle

A
The Castle

  • 1
  • 0
  • 57
Sonatas XII-91 (Farms)

A
Sonatas XII-91 (Farms)

  • 2
  • 2
  • 71
Sydney Harbour

A
Sydney Harbour

  • 5
  • 2
  • 130
Sonatas XII-90 (Farms)

A
Sonatas XII-90 (Farms)

  • 0
  • 2
  • 95

Recent Classifieds

Forum statistics

Threads
200,377
Messages
2,807,128
Members
100,238
Latest member
SkyZero
Recent bookmarks
0

MCB18

Subscriber
Joined
Jan 16, 2023
Messages
1,228
Location
Colorado
Format
Medium Format
Hi all! I have a friend that found a big roll of “IR Typesetting film” that is apparently from the 2000s, and when I looked into it, apparently Ultrafine still sells it! Does anyone have any experience with this stuff? Supposedly it’s made to work with 760 and 840nm lasers, which is very interesting. It’s probably very slow, and will need to be developed in a very low contrast dev, but would it be worth picking up a roll of it to experiment? It’s only like $150 for a 12“ x 100‘ roll I think…
 
Last edited:

mshchem

Subscriber
Joined
Nov 26, 2007
Messages
15,333
Location
Iowa City, Iowa USA
Format
Medium Format
Strange sounding stuff. Might be exceptionally slow to visible light?? I wonder if it can be handled under safelight. Typesetting, I'm familiar with the old phototypesetters that would output from computer directly on lightweight photo paper (black lettering on white paper) .
I suppose this could be for burning litho plates?
 
Joined
Sep 19, 2003
Messages
14,750
Location
K,Germany
Format
Medium Format
Hi all! I have a friend that found a big roll of “IR Typesetting film” that is apparently from the 2000s, and when I looked into it, apparently Ultrafine still sells it! Does anyone have any experience with this stuff? Supposedly it’s made to work with 760 and 840nm lasers, which is very interesting. It’s probably very slow, and will need to be developed in a very low contrast dev, but would it be worth picking up a roll of it to experiment? It’s only like $150 for a 12“ x 100‘ roll I think…

this is made for imagesetters and prepress work not regular photography, but it's perfect for making digital halftone negatives.
 

koraks

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Nov 29, 2018
Messages
24,957
Location
Europe
Format
Multi Format
this is made for imagesetters and prepress work not regular photography, but it's perfect for making digital halftone negatives.
Precisely; using an appropriate digital laser exposure machine.
The film is generally very thin, and as said indeed very high contrast with very high dmax (4.0+ logD). It might be possible to coax something continuous tone from it with lots, lots of exposure. I doubt it'll produce any particularly good images.
 

tykos

Member
Joined
Jun 26, 2020
Messages
144
Location
italy
Format
4x5 Format
i think Michael Strickland uses imagesetters printed negatives for his carbon transfers, you could ask him if he ever tried esposing the film with a camera
 

koraks

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Nov 29, 2018
Messages
24,957
Location
Europe
Format
Multi Format
i think Michael Strickland uses imagesetters printed negatives for his carbon transfers, you could ask him if he ever tried esposing the film with a camera
He does; so do Calvin Grier, Katayoun Dowlatshahi and Todd Gangler. To the best of my knowledge all of them contract out the negative-making to a pre-press service. They send the files and receive the ready-made negatives. This is also how I've done it on occasion. My bet is that none of these people have ever had to handle the unprocessed material. I'm also not aware of any interest in Michael's behalf in this kind of photography; I doubt he still actively uses film in the first place.

Note also that imagesetter film is not always IR-sensitized; there's a couple of types to match with the different kinds of machines/exposure systems out there. Lasers of different wavelengths are used.
 

tykos

Member
Joined
Jun 26, 2020
Messages
144
Location
italy
Format
4x5 Format
i've seen in his instagram stories that he has a couple of imagesetters machines in house. don't know what models or what type of film he uses.
 

koraks

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Nov 29, 2018
Messages
24,957
Location
Europe
Format
Multi Format
Okay, I didn't know that; in that case he's at least familiar with the raw material. Of course, it never hurts to ask, but I doubt he's tried this. What I've seen of his (recent) work, everything is digitally recorded.
 

tykos

Member
Joined
Jun 26, 2020
Messages
144
Location
italy
Format
4x5 Format
sometimes he uses film from clients, he drum scans it and then he does his computer magics to have the negatives.
I think i've seen some pt/pd prints recently, maybe even contact prints, but honestly i think most of his work is digital. The name came to mind because he's one of the the strongest links between film photography and imagesetters, i mean, if he wanted he'd know how to throw some of that film in hc-110 and look at it.
 

koraks

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Nov 29, 2018
Messages
24,957
Location
Europe
Format
Multi Format
Yeah, technically he could and who knows he has tried it at some point. Doesn't hurt to ask. He sometimes posts on the carbon transfer groups.io mailing list, so he seems like the kind of guy you could reach out to easily.
 
OP
OP

MCB18

Subscriber
Joined
Jan 16, 2023
Messages
1,228
Location
Colorado
Format
Medium Format
Thanks for the info!

Yes I am aware that this film is definitely not meant for regular cameras, but I think if you use an ultra-low contrast developer, in theory it should be possible to get something usable? I know folks have used graphic arts film in the past as camera film, and the images can look pretty good! I personally use sound recording film and microfilm in camera for normal photography, and although a bit contrasty, it does make rather nice images.
 
OP
OP

MCB18

Subscriber
Joined
Jan 16, 2023
Messages
1,228
Location
Colorado
Format
Medium Format
This is "hard dot" film, I really couldn't say if I've ever seen anyone share any results with it used for con.tone photography. "Graphic arts" is kind of a broad category.
Thanks for the more specific search term, that helped a lot!

This post on Reddit shows that a sodium sulfate pre-bath seems to help lower the contrast a bit, which is pretty interesting. Still needs a very low contrast developer, but continuous tone photography is definitely possible. At least with the stuff B&H sells.
 

koraks

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Nov 29, 2018
Messages
24,957
Location
Europe
Format
Multi Format
sodium sulfate pre-bath
Sulfite, not sulfate!
I don't know for sure if that's the same kind of film, but it might be similar. IDK how this film works exactly, only that if you look at the curves, it's pretty much a vertical line instead of a curve. So it's really tailored to give no greyscales whatsoever - which is exactly what you need in its intended application. It's possible that they accomplish this in part by incorporating a developer in the emulsion itself, or something that interacts with the developer. This is what I take from the Reddit post and it makes sense to me. The sulfite pre-bath might act to get rid of those compounds in some way. I'm just familiar enough with this product by far to say anything more sensible about it.

Well, $125 for a roll really isn't too expensive, so I'd just give it a go. Why not? Easy enough and it won't break the bank. It'll be challenging to cut sheets from it without creating kinks in the film, which will likely show up as crescents in the photos. Given its sensitivity there's a good chance you can process the film under green light. There may be safelight instructions to go with it. I doubt you'll be able to use white light because of the blue component, which the film is probably innately sensitive to as well.

It's funny that it comes up because a few months ago I was looking for something like this, but couldn't easily find a roll for purchase locally (without jumping through hoops of making business accounts with b2b distributors etc.), at least not attractively. My idea was to use it to somehow print a halftone pattern on it without using an imagesetter. I have some ideas for that and I'm quite sure that this would in principle work for stuff like carbon transfer. Just one of those many, many things I haven't gotten round to - and likely never will.
 
OP
OP

MCB18

Subscriber
Joined
Jan 16, 2023
Messages
1,228
Location
Colorado
Format
Medium Format
Sulfite, not sulfate!
Oop! Yes, very important haha.

I don't know for sure if that's the same kind of film, but it might be similar. IDK how this film works exactly, only that if you look at the curves, it's pretty much a vertical line instead of a curve. So it's really tailored to give no greyscales whatsoever - which is exactly what you need in its intended application.
Yes, I am familiar with the concept. The Foto-32 film that I have been experimenting with is also like this, giving ultra-high contrast and almost no grayscale if developed with normal developers. I am pretty sure it (along with the former Washi-S) is TF 12d, which has an impressively vertical H&D curve.
1761831309613.png

I have gotten some pretty good results from it though, using H&W Control.

Well, $125 for a roll really isn't too expensive, so I'd just give it a go. Why not? Easy enough and it won't break the bank. It'll be challenging to cut sheets from it without creating kinks in the film, which will likely show up as crescents in the photos. Given its sensitivity there's a good chance you can process the film under green light.
I do have a way to cut the film down to sheets, although before I buy an entire roll, I do want to run some experiments with the film that my friend got. It probably isn’t identical, but it would at least tell me whether the pursuit is worth any effort. Very interesting to know about the green safelight thing, I’ll have to see if I can find a green LED that could be used with this. I did email Ultrafine about it to see if they can provide any more information, so we’ll see.
 

OrientPoint

Subscriber
Joined
Jan 25, 2018
Messages
441
Location
New York
Format
35mm
I used to run an imagesetter on the overnight shift. This was in the 1990s, so in the time frame of the materials you're looking it. When work was slow we'd experiment with the various graphics arts films we had access to. There were various types of line film, masks, etc. The image setting film was not much fun. It was pretty thin, could only do black or white and nothing in between (truly), and required lots of exposure. As I recall, we had to run it through a specific processor. We couldn't use the same process as for most other films. With a lot of other graphic arts films you could coax a range of tones one way or another. With imagesetter film, not really. At least that was my experience trying with one type for a few hours three decades ago.

I doubt you're going to get much of anything interesting out of an imagesetter film without an imagesetter. There are so many other old films floating around these days with which to torture yourself trying to get results . I'd save the $125 and buy some old microfilm to play with.
 
OP
OP

MCB18

Subscriber
Joined
Jan 16, 2023
Messages
1,228
Location
Colorado
Format
Medium Format
I doubt you're going to get much of anything interesting out of an imagesetter film without an imagesetter. There are so many other old films floating around these days with which to torture yourself trying to get results . I'd save the $125 and buy some old microfilm to play with.
I have a 200m roll of 105mm microfilm on the way that I’m getting for free in exchange for cutting it down to 120/4x5, so I have microfilm covered haha.

I did find some posts on LFF about it, and it seems VERY slow, and contrasty, but apparently some of this staff is sensitive well into the 800-900nm range. And if it has a large dip in the green sensitivity like @koraks suggested, it could be possible to use something like a Red 25 as opposed to 720/760/820nm filters.
 

koraks

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Nov 29, 2018
Messages
24,957
Location
Europe
Format
Multi Format
Very interesting to know about the green safelight thing, I’ll have to see if I can find a green LED that could be used with this. I did email Ultrafine about it to see if they can provide any more information, so we’ll see.

You can look up the datasheets of e.g. Agfa HNS film, which is likely somewhat similar to what you're looking at now (but it cuts off at around 700nm). You'll notice it has a dip in sensitivity around 500nm; this is cyan and it's available in LEDs, although standard 525nm LED might work too if you keep it dim enough. Careful though because the film is sensitive to it, just less so. You may end up biasing all your tests if you expose it to 'safe' light only to realize later on you've effectively fogged the film, thereby reducing highlight contrast. You may be able to develop visually by having a very dim safelight on during very brief periods as you process in a tray.
 

mshchem

Subscriber
Joined
Nov 26, 2007
Messages
15,333
Location
Iowa City, Iowa USA
Format
Medium Format
I used to run an imagesetter on the overnight shift. This was in the 1990s, so in the time frame of the materials you're looking it. When work was slow we'd experiment with the various graphics arts films we had access to. There were various types of line film, masks, etc. The image setting film was not much fun. It was pretty thin, could only do black or white and nothing in between (truly), and required lots of exposure. As I recall, we had to run it through a specific processor. We couldn't use the same process as for most other films. With a lot of other graphic arts films you could coax a range of tones one way or another. With imagesetter film, not really. At least that was my experience trying with one type for a few hours three decades ago.

I doubt you're going to get much of anything interesting out of an imagesetter film without an imagesetter. There are so many other old films floating around these days with which to torture yourself trying to get results . I'd save the $125 and buy some old microfilm to play with.
This is what the print shop at a former employer used. Ancient history.

 
OP
OP

MCB18

Subscriber
Joined
Jan 16, 2023
Messages
1,228
Location
Colorado
Format
Medium Format
@MCB18 there is only one way to find out!
I will see about getting some of this film from a friend, just to see if I can get any good results. If I do get promising results, I would definitely consider getting some fresh. And depending on the results, I wouldn’t be opposed to cutting it up into sheets, although I doubt there’s going to be enough interest for me to try and get it made into something like 35 mm or 120.
 
Photrio.com contains affiliate links to products. We may receive a commission for purchases made through these links.
To read our full affiliate disclosure statement please click Here.

PHOTRIO PARTNERS EQUALLY FUNDING OUR COMMUNITY:



Ilford ADOX Freestyle Photographic Stearman Press Weldon Color Lab Blue Moon Camera & Machine
Top Bottom